Is Lytham and St. Anne's a Links Course?

[JNC Lyon]

It's land-locked, there are trees all over the place, and it's soaking wet.  Links or no?

[John Kavanaugh]

It's the UK's Torrey Pines.  I have never witnessed such a boring course.

[jeffwarne]

It's land-locked, there are trees all over the place, and it's soaking wet.  Links or no?

If it weren't a links, it'd be closed right now
and if it weren't closed, they'd be playing lift clean and cheat or Tiger would be screaming #@$% mudball!!

[David Davis]

I think everyone here knows this but just in case it's not clear and I'm happy to be corrected if anyone disagrees. Links refers to the land that links the beach and see to the fertile ground. Many true links courses are not right on the sea, take Muirfield for example. All are sand based.

Lytham is certainly a true links and a fine one at that. Part of my disappointment, although I'm still analyzing my thoughts on this, is that there is no wind. My home course being a links course we honestly have a total of windless days that you can count on one hand. So the masochist in me feels I/we are being cheated and the rest of the world is being deceived into thinking this really actually happens (windless links golf). For me it's something I've only seen on TV after playing hundreds of rounds on links courses throughout the world.

I will add that the town itself in the photos does not do much for aesthetics but perhaps it's a lovely place, I don't know it well. Let's face it, not all links courses are the benefactors of the most beautiful settings (take Carnoustie for example) but that doesn't take away from brilliant architecture, bunkering and and green complexes that are even a challenge when the wind is still.

Yes I'm only disappointed in the wind or lack thereof...

[jeffwarne]

I think everyone here knows this but just in case it's not clear and I'm happy to be corrected if anyone disagrees. Links refers to the land that links the beach and see to the fertile ground. Many true links courses are not right on the sea, take Muirfield for example. All are sand based.

Lytham is certainly a true links and a fine one at that. Part of my disappointment, although I'm still analyzing my thoughts on this, is that there is no wind. My home course being a links course we honestly have a total of windless days that you can count on one hand. So the masochist in me feels I/we are being cheated and the rest of the world is being deceived into thinking this really actually happens (windless links golf). For me it's something I've only seen on TV after playing hundreds of rounds on links courses throughout the world.

Yes I'm only disappointed in the wind or lack thereof...

+1
every player or announcer they is quoted as saying "conditions are perfect"
I'm waiting for someone to say what a shame it is the weather has created such a "soft"course  (for a links) and that, coupled with the absence of wind has not allowed the better ballstrikers and creative shotmakers to emerge.

Perhaps conditions are conducive to overall low scoring, but they're certainly not perfect for solid links players to separate themselves.(although the wind does seem to be blowing quite hard between Mickelson's ears)

I rather like the look of the course itself

[BCrosby]

JNC -

I think of 'links' courses as being defined by the geological history of the terrain on which they are built. Price's book (I'm going on memory here) defined linksland as dune formations (Price uses a technical term I've forgotten) exposed by a receding coast line that is shaped by wind and native vegetation. That means most links courses will be located by the sea. But thay don't need to be. A links course can be landlocked if the foregoing describes its geological history and the architect doesn't plow under those natural features.

BTW, that geological history applies to Sand Hills. The dunes there were formed by a receding ancient inland sea whose northern most coast once extended into northern Nebraska.

Bob

 

[George Pazin]

The Open wouldn't be there if it were not one.

Like Troon, Lytham really looks great to me in HD. I guess I have an affectation for bumpy fairways and pot bunkers.

[Anthony Butler]

Two things not up for debate...

1) Royal Lytham is a links course.
2) Brandt Snedeker is the luckiest SOB in the history of Golf... "What me Worry?" No coincidence he looks like Alfred E. Newman.

[Steve Salmen]

If wet and you still get run out and no mud, it's a links.

[David Davis]

Also in the defense of links courses that lack the rugged high dunes landscape, they all look boring on the TV from above because you can't make out just how dramatic the undulation and how deep the bunkers are.

It was the same with Royal St. Georges. To me the landscape seemed flat until I played the course then I was shocked, especially around the greens. If Lytham was easy and boring these guys would be coming in with scores in the low 60's. If the wind picks up it will get very interesting.

[Phil McDade]

Two things not up for debate...

1) Royal Lytham is a links course.
2) Brandt Snedeker is the luckiest SOB in the history of Golf... "What me Worry?" No coincidence he looks like Alfred E. Newman.

Yeah -- some luck. Snedeker's hit nearly every fairway, nearly every green, and sunk a bunch of putts. Sounds like Tiger in his prime, the luckiest golfer of all time.

[Anthony Butler]

Two things not up for debate...

1) Royal Lytham is a links course.
2) Brandt Snedeker is the luckiest SOB in the history of Golf... "What me Worry?" No coincidence he looks like Alfred E. Newman.

Yeah -- some luck. Snedeker's hit nearly every fairway, nearly every green, and sunk a bunch of putts. Sounds like Tiger in his prime, the luckiest golfer of all time.

Hi Phil,

Snedeker played awesome for the first 13-14 holes, but I guess your TV must have gone on the fritz for the last hour or so... he's been all over the place... two drives so far left he was over the rough into where the people walk. Seems like every time Snedeker plays well he seems to get some breaks... his win in San Diego early this year for instance was due only to the spectacular bad luck of one of his fellow competitors.

Not that I'm wishing him or anyone else any ill will, but I'm hoping the wind blows for the next two days so at least the winner has his game tested before they hand him the Claret Jug...

Speaking of Tiger, he's gone back to the fade and hitting it good right now....

[Sam Morrow]

When the weather is good all the rota courses look boring to me except the Old Course. I think that TV doesn't lend itself well to links golf. I think it's something you have to see and feel in person. It's like hockey to me, I can't watch it on TV but I love seeing the game in person.

[Phil McDade]

Anthony:

66-64 isn't luck.

Is one really lucky when you've played 36 holes and not recorded a bogey, or a 5 on your card? Isn't recovery from off-line shots a matter of skill? How come Mickelson is so much unluckier than Snedeker so far? He's been in some similar positions, and faced some similar putts, and yet is 21 shots worse through 36 holes. What a run of bad luck he's had.

Tiger yesterday hit a drive on 15 into the gunk, and had a nearly unplayable lie that he advanced all of 30 yards. Next shot, in the same kind of gunk, and he hits an approach 150 yards onto the green. Afterwards, he said his first lie was horrible, and his second lie much better. Isn't that the nature of golf, generally, and links golf specifically? Ever played on a links?

[George Pazin]

 

Reminds me of that scene in Rounders (paraphrasing):

"Why do you think the same 5 guys make it to the final table (at the WSOP) every year? Are they the 5 luckiest guys in the world?"


Luck always evens out, we just don't see the times when Snedeker got screwed because when he's out of it, he's not on the tube. Only Tiger is shown when he's out of it...

[Anthony Butler]

Reminds me of that scene in Rounders (paraphrasing):

"Why do you think the same 5 guys make it to the final table (at the WSOP) every year? Are they the 5 luckiest guys in the world?"


Luck always evens out, we just don't see the times when Snedeker got screwed because when he's out of it, he's not on the tube. Only Tiger is shown when he's out of it...

Those two points while ultimately true, don't make sense together.

72 holes is usually enough time for things to even out. Especially if you throw a little weather in there.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Yes it is. It is a few blocks from the ocean on links land. It is raining in case you are not watching tv or the weather.

[Tom_Doak]

+2 for David Davis' summary.  Royal Lytham & St. Annes is a true links and a very good one.

Links courses are built for the wind and they can seem pretty easy when they're soft and the wind isn't blowing.  Some doctor from Argentina shot 64 at Muirfield in similar conditions in the Open of 1980 ... and anybody who thinks that is an easy course is welcome to bet me a lot of money on their next medal score there.  ALL of the Open championship courses are subject to low scoring under conditions like these, except maybe Carnoustie -- which is why I don't think Carnoustie is as good as the rest of them.


P.S. to Anthony Butler - I had dinner with Brent Snedeker when he played in the Kiwi Challenge at Cape Kidnappers three years ago; he was down there on his honeymoon.  He IS a lucky guy, and he is one of the few Tour players I've met who seems to appreciate that.  If he wound up winning The Open it would make me smile.  By the same token, I've spent a bit of time with Adam Scott, and I played 54 holes in the Dunhill Links a few years ago in the same group with Thomas Aiken -- a really talented youngster at the time -- and I would be pleased for either of them if they wind up on top Sunday.

[Sven Nilsen]

ALL of the Open championship courses are subject to low scoring under conditions like these, except maybe Carnoustie -- which is why I don't think Carnoustie is as good as the rest of them.

Tom:

Can you expound on this a bit?  If Carnoustie is a tough test with or without weather, why does that make it not as good as the other rota courses?  I'm extrapolating that you feel that a course that is very hard under benign conditions doesn't offer the flexibility to be playable for the full range of golfers, but didn't want to jump to that conclusion without some follow up.

All:

I am finding this Open to be particularly interesting.  The lack of wind seems to be enticing the players to play further down the fairway, and is opening up the possibility of the wayward drive resulting in a lost shot.  Watching Phil ping pong his way around the course yesterday was a lesson in poor course management.  I think he figured it out by the end of the day, but there was a stretch where it was evident that he should have been placing a premium on finding the fairway.

I also watched plenty of drives roll out and get collected by a fairway bunker.  Colsaerts hit a drive late in the day that looked perfect, but took a bit of turn on the ground, rolled about 15 feet further than I thought it would and ended up taking the plunge to a sandy lie.  Looking at the scores and the number of guys struggling under benign conditions makes me think that the course has plenty of bite (with the much discussed thick rough being part of this equation).  There's more going on than just finding the fairway, as the greens themselves seem particularly hard to hold from certain angles, and it seems like the subtle elevation changes in some spots is causing problems.  The sod walls on the bunkers are also creating a great deal of trouble for anyone whose ball ends up near the face.  The number of long par putts being made by those in contention has been amazing so far.

Put me in the crowd that would rather watch these guys have to think their way around, whether when standing on the tee or when deciding how to deal with any trouble they find.  We know how a course like Congressional plays under wet conditions, this is a totally different animal.

Sven

[Kalen Braley]

I watched this morning before work as well on my HD TV, and put me in the camp of the course looking uninteresting with flattish greens.  It just might be the most uninteresting course on the Rota if memory serves.

However, i'm sure it looks much different on the ground as there must be some reason they use it in the rotation.

[Sean_A]

Of course Lytham is a links.  I have never been a fan, but Lytham is a very good championship venue.  In the easiest of conditions the course is holding up and there are a ton of doubles to go with the birdies.  In truth, the course looks better than my memory suggested.  It matters not though, any place that "needs" 200 bunkers is doing something very wrong.  Tom, I will take Formby all day long - you can have all the others on the LANCS coast.

Incidentally, is it Fairhaven, just down the road from Lytham, which used to have 300 bunkers?

Ciao

[DMoriarty]

I haven't seen the course in person but even on television the subtle land movement looks terrific to me, whether a links or not. (It sounds from the descriptions that it definitely is.)

But the setup looks hokey to me to me, with fairways very narrow and and with very little possibility for recovery.   Not sure that wrist and hand injuries ought to be a repeated concern for golfers who barely miss the fairways.   And if the wind blows with the roughs as they are, won't the tournament turn into a blood bath?   That might be more fun to watch, but still hokey. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Incidentally, is it Fairhaven, just down the road from Lytham, which used to have 300 bunkers?

Ciao

Sean,

I believe Lythym itself once had 320 / 360 bunkers... Over 300 anyway...

Ally

[Phil McDade]

Sven:

I'm with you -- I think there is a tendency among some players to be more aggressive on a "soft" course, i.e., playing driver off the tee more often, and going after flags, because a soft course tends to play "wider" than usual. And of course no one playing the game today is more aggressive than Mickelson, so I don't necessarily think he mis-judged how to go about attacking the course. I just think he played horribly, with missed shot after missed shot.

I also agree the course is playing much tougher than folks seem to be characterizing it. Two players so far are playing exceptionally well, but lots of folks are around -1, -2, and -3. The cut's going to be +3 -- that strikes me as a pretty fair challenge.

[Pete Lavallee]

It's the UK's Torrey Pines.  I have never witnessed such a boring course.

 

Not true, if you were to play there it is highly unlikely you would be paired with both a black and Asian golfer. The green fee is probably well south of $237 too.