[jeffwarne]

Kris,

you don't appear to take what I write at face value, but constantly interpret something into my words which I have neither said nor inferred. Discussions don't work that way.

Mark,

I can't believe you find a greenfee of £100/£110 modest! Anyway, what I meant by "responsibility" is that they are caretakers of one of the world's great courses and not a small, rural club that has no bearing on the world outside their village. If I were a member there, I'd feel that we need to do a lot more for visitors than, say, Durness. I'd feel that this is not my course, but a place that I inherited from members coming before me and that I was entrusted to safe-keep for future generations and the rest of the world.

One way of safe-keeping could certainly be to avoid building an expensive clubhouse. Another way might be to do just that. I am in no position to judge whether Royal Dornoch should take a few cues from St Andrews in terms of visitor infrastructure. All I can say is that I felt there was a disconnection of sorts at Dornoch - a bit like Sodeto.

Ulrich

The problem is,  "doing more for visitors" by upgrading the clubhouse simply drives up the cost of being a visitor.
Anyone who skips Dornoch because they feel the clubhouse is lacking is probably ssomeone who won't be missed.

[David_Tepper]

"Anyone who skips Dornoch because they feel the clubhouse is lacking is probably someone who won't be missed."

Jeff W. (and everyone else) -

Without commenting on whether Royal Dornoch should or should not build a new clubhouse, I would like to offer a slightly different perspective.  

While some of the purists here might focus on the primacy of the "on course golf experience" at Royal Dornoch, the reality is the club is, to a large extent, a commercial enterprise. In terms of revenue received and the number of people employed, it is likely one of the 2 or 3 the biggest businesses in Dornoch, if not the whole county of Sutherland.

In addition, the visitors that Royal Dornoch attracts to the town are, to a large extent, the lifeblood of the other businesses in town - the restaurants, hotels, B&B's, shops, etc.    

I have spent enough time in Dornoch and the Highlands over the past 8 1/2 years to realize that the primary reason the town of Dornoch is far more prosperous that other towns in the Highlands (some of which are in economic decay) is because this wonderful golf course is located there. Royal Dornoch attracts visitors to the town and those visitors have money to spend on food, lodging, cashmere sweaters, etc., as well as green fees.

I have no idea whether a new clubhouse would benefit either Royal Dornoch or the town of Dornoch in this regard. But the golf course does not exist in a vacuum. It would be a mistake to deny the realities of the bigger picture.

DT  

[jeffwarne]

David,
I agree 100% with your statement-I'd hardly call it a different perspective.
You're certainly qualified to comment on Dornoch, its' golf and its' industry.

Of course it's a business.
I would just argue that it takes a long time to make up 4 million pounds in new revenues.
(and only an F&B manager would tell you that clubhouse expansion would make the enterprise more profitable. )
My point is Dornoch has always been known as a simpler remote golf getaway, without the tourist trappings of a St. Andrews or even a Ballybunion.
Someone would have to pay for it and it would likely be larger visitor fees or increased member dues (which would possibly change the composition of the membership)
seems a large price to pay when the the current clubhouse is functional.

You said it yourself  "Dornoch is more prosperous than other towns in the Highlands because this wonderful COURSE is located there.

[Jon Wiggett]

David T,

I hope Dornoch will always view itself as primarily a members club and cut its cloth accordingly. Where it to look at been primarily a business then it would use the Struie as its members course and have greenfee only rounds on the main course. But I doubt this is what anyone wants.

Jon

[Ulrich Mayring]

Jon,

just because Royal Dornoch is a major business doesn't mean it has to maximise profits above all else. I would view it as a non-profit business that should re-invest any surplus. But a business it is and as such it has to care about its customers and the services it provides. Certainly the members are one group of customers, but the visitors are another and their needs are to some extent different.

What I still haven't understood is why the existing clubhouse is unused for much of the year. Where do the non-playing members go? Where do the playing members go in inclement weather? Are they staying at home?

I watched the Carnegie Shield some time ago - apparently THE event at Royal Dornoch. The weather was fine and I would have expected crowds of members sitting out on the patio, having a beer and watching the matches come in.

Ulrich

[Bryan Izatt]

How many members does Dornoch have that are drawn from the local communities and that are there for the majority of the year.  Before and after the prime summer season I can imagine that things are pretty slow at the club.  I also didn't get the impression that Dornoch is a country club in the American sense where members go there and hang out for the facilities and the bar and the restaurant (but, I could be wrong on that).

Ulrich,

I've been there a number of times and I don't believe there is a patio.  In any event the 18th green is somewhat removed from the clubhouse although you can see it pretty clearly from some of the seats in the second floor restaurant/bar.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark actually said the RD greenfee is relatively modest which it is compared to other world class venues. It is far cheaper than many of the members GUEST fees at high end US clubs. Let's look at US top 100s you can pay a greenfee at - Pebble Beach around £350 for ONE round. I'd say RD is reasonable!

[Mark Pearce]

Ulrich,

I don't remember a patio, either.  If there was one, as Bryan says, it wouldn't have a view of the 18th green!

[Rich Goodale]

Ulrich/Bryan

There are ~400 local members at Dornoch and it is rare (even in the sunny month(s) of the year) for more than 10-20 of them being in the clubhouse at the same time.  Despite the fact that the clubhouse has world class views and (for the past few years) world-class food, hanging out at the golf club is not something that Scottish people do.  In the 2-3 weeks I spend in Dornoch each year (over 4-5 visits) one of the joys of the clubhouse is being able to sit in it in splendid relative isolation.  My local club (Aberdour) has a clubhouse with equal views and nearly equal food and 700 local members and it is deserted most of the time.  Why?  As the Scots would say, go figure....?

So, given this behavio(u)r, why would the club choose to spend megaquids to (marginally) expand the space for the lucky people like me to enjoy the views and our isolation?  I would like to not think that the powers that now be think "We need a clubhouse that would make our golf course proud!" but I think that what I would like to think is not what is......

As for the patio, no, there is not one, although if the plans are approved we will have one.  It will be nice for those relatively few days when one can sit on an exposed patio in Dornoch without wearing a sweater.  That being said, as Bryan rightly notes, you really can't see what's happening on the 18th from the clubhouse, and in fact the greatest times I have had at the Dornoch clubhouse have been inside, looking inward at good friends and talking and laughing about things that good friends do when they are in good cheer and filled with good drink and good craic.  No new clubhouse could ever improve upon those experiences.

Rich

[Stan Dodd]

del

[Jon Wiggett]

Ulrich,

I don't believe that RD should be run as a business (profit making one or not) just so as to put the case straight. It is a MEMBERS CLUB and as such it is up to the members if the clubhouse is okay which indications would suggest they believe it is.

Mark C,

the comparison method is always relevant. Yes, compared to the US courses such as Pebble it is reasonable but is it reasonable compared to its peers in the area? I would suggest it is asking a rate that many visitors will pay but just as many wont despite its great course. Its greenfee is sustainable in the current market but as to if it is reasonable that is something else. I would suggest that for the same price in APril/May you could have had 3 days golf at Tain and CS was almost half the price for locals.

Jon

[Ulrich Mayring]

Jon,

the fact is, as David Tepper has pointed out, that it *is* a business and one of the largest in the area. Here in Germany I have seen many golf clubs fail economically, because they were a business, but weren't run like one.

Mark,

you cannot compare Royal Dornoch's greenfee to Pebble Beach or other US courses. These are completely different markets and it is like saying a Porsche is modestly priced, because a Lamborghini is three times as expensive.

Rich,

if hanging out at the club is not something that Scots do, then I venture that any gastronomic outfit will struggle to stay alive. To the point of degenerating quality or one day not having any food or drink available. It needs to be a sustainable business and if the members won't patronise it, then who is left but visitors? Or why have a clubhouse at all if hardly anyone wants to use it?

All,

I said I was expecting members sitting out on the patio and watching the matches come in - this is an expectation I had before coming to Dornoch and seeing that they neither have a patio, nor bar service outside, nor any views of the action. The reason I expected it to be like that is that most German clubs build their clubhouses like that. Come on, who wouldn't?

Now, obviously Scotland is a whole different country, but I can say from my experience here that those clubs with patios overlooking the 18th and/or 9th green are running a sustainable operation on the food/beverage front. They are always frequented by members, especially on tournament days, where many members sit and drink and laugh and eat and wait for the awards ceremony.

I do think that Royal Dornoch could have a clubhouse that members frequent, if said clubhouse was a nicer place to be than the living room at home

Ulrich

[Niall C]

FWIW, my thoughts on Dornoch as a club is that just because of the undoubted quality of the course and the fact that it can generate a lot of revenue in green fees and associated visitor sales for the club doesn't mean the club should necessarily have to maximise that revenue. They should run it for the benefit of the members and not the accountants. If the members want it run to maximise revenue then fair play to them, if not fair play to them also.

Clearly the club isn't obligated to create a new clubhouse just to please those visitors, and why should they be. In many clubs up here, a visitor ticket makes you a member of the club for the day, sharing the same facilities. It would be nice to think that if the club did decide to build a new clubhouse, that it didn't go down the route of seperating members and visitors in the clubhouse the way Gullane and Troon. Can't help feeling those clubs probably lost something when that happened.

Also, I find it hard to believe that spending £4m on a new clubhouse is likely to increase the revenue to anything like required to pay back the investment.

Kris,

I'm sure Dornoch has a strong local element but I would think the club is squarely in the ranks of those clubs that are national or international in scope such as Prestwick, and Troon even. Over a hundred years ago the club used to hold annual dinners down in London for their London members back in the days when the better off could take the summer off to play golf.

Niall

[Kris Shreiner]

Ulrich,

It's all good. RD, properly lead, with a membership that thinks, will be just fine.



Niall,

I concur with your points, and would add that while RD has had a strong away membership from way back, it has generally been run with the local influence firmly in the center of how the club determines its course of action on matters. The away member and visitor concerns, given the importance their financial support constitutes in helping fund the club, has been balanced against the locals reality that RD is a rural, country golf club, albeit one of world class standing due to its COURSE. Though the occasional untidy moment has arisen, they've done a splendid job overall.

Cheers,
Kris

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

you cannot compare Royal Dornoch's greenfee to Pebble Beach or other US courses. These are completely different markets and it is like saying a Porsche is modestly priced, because a Lamborghini is three times as expensive.

Ulrich,

I can compare them.  Yes, they are a different market but the product is of the same quality.  Having visited Pebble and Dornoch in the last 18 months I can say with no doubt whatsoever that I would rather drink after a round in the clubhouse at Dornoch than in any of the establishments at Pebble.  You want Dornoch to feel like a country club, or a posh British club.  It isn't, it's a wonderful Scottish village club with a world class course.

[John Crowley]

I am a member for the COURSE.  The current four walls and roof that doesn't leak are all I need. That said, the experiences with friends over drinks and eats in the clubhouse have been comfortable and memorable.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

the fact is, as David Tepper has pointed out, that it *is* a business and one of the largest in the area. Here in Germany I have seen many golf clubs fail economically, because they were a business, but weren't run like one.

Ulrich, the way golf clubs are set up in GB is very different to that in Germany. RD is a members club in the first instance and not a business. The reason why clubs fail in Germany from time to time is down to a poor business model. RDs model works fine here in Scotland



if hanging out at the club is not something that Scots do, then I venture that any gastronomic outfit will struggle to stay alive. Yet it has done okay till now

why have a clubhouse at all if hardly anyone wants to use it?

good point Ulrich, thats why they don't want a big new one



Ulrich

[Michael Whitaker]

Mark actually said the RD greenfee is relatively modest which it is compared to other world class venues. It is far cheaper than many of the members GUEST fees at high end US clubs. Let's look at US top 100s you can pay a greenfee at - Pebble Beach around £350 for ONE round. I'd say RD is reasonable!

Ah, yes... the Pebble Beach factor rears its ugly head. Pebble Beach's rate has been used to justify high prices at other courses for decades. Pebble Beach is filled with corporate entertainment customers because no one else can afford the fee. Is this what you want to see happen at Dornoch?

It is a shame that UK courses are now using the high cost of American guest fees to justify increasing rates. Many are quickly approaching the point where business from visitors, guests and members will be affected. It's sad to see, really.

I was afraid something like this would happen at Dornoch when Castle Stuart received so much praise for their course and house in spite of their grossly high price structure. I'm sure the powers that be at Dornoch feel a bit left behind.

The current clubhouse is more than adequate.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Sorry folks, I didn't mean to crash the party. The problem is I didn't even know there was a party

Ulrich

[Kris Shreiner]

Ulrich,

Join the party...in the CURRENT clubhouse! 

Cheers,
Kris

[Jon Wiggett]

One point that has not been addressed till now is that the golf club enjoys wide acceptance in the village. This has a lot to do with the number of external visitors it brings in who enjoy the many alternative attractions away from the golf. Dornoch's excellent pubs and restaurants would be hit badly should the golf try to keep these guests up at the club.

Jon

[James Boon]

The advantage of having parents who live in the highlands is that I do get Royal Dornoch updates from them even though they aren't golfers. Here is the latest update which may be of interest...
http://www.northern-times.co.uk/News/Golfers-to-take-crucial-vote-on-clubhouse-10082012.htm

Cheers,

James

[Sean_A]

Wow, I am surprised the club manager is allowed/willing to go public with his pro-new house line before the vote.  I would not be best pleased with his comments if I paid a subscription.

Ciao

[Brent Carlson]

Royal Dornoch is the most amazing golf experience I have ever had.  I beg of them to be reasonable and keep greens fees affordable for the average golfer.  The place is simply too special to become over commercialized.  The current clubhouse is nice - there has to be another solution.

[Kris Shreiner]

MY GOD! If that rendition is what is proposed...SACK the architect and hold ANY vote until something more reflective of the area architecture is offered. It looks like something along the lines of the CS edifice, which IS NOT compatible... AT ALL... with the serene setting that is RD.

Where is the taste folks? The current clubhouse, warts and all, FITS the surroundings. Whatever, whenever it happens, that replaces it, BETTER have an attractive, complimentary look to the timeless, natural approachability and feel that the ground there exudes. It is VERY important to maintain that unique aura RD has, because some sterile monument such as is has been depicted will RUIN that vibe...BIGTIME!



As a member, I'm becoming increasingly concerned with the commercial leaning of the direction at RD. The new clubhouse, with the interest required, is closer to $12 million. The August week of the Shield, and the 3-man in May, are the only two times of the YEAR, with the occasional amateur biggie excepted, that the clubhouse is heaving with folks and taxed capacity-wise. The idea that members might have to wait for service, when the place is packed during those two weeks, as a justfiable reason for a new clubhouse is weak. When a place IS BUSY...you WIll wait. So what? Let's plunge the club into debt and needlessly burden the membership...in very shaky economic times, just to have the cavernous gin palace for those massive, whole two weeks a year the club may be at, or over, capacity. Really...please.

So why does the membership need to pay for/provide still MORE pro shop space? I like Andrew, our pro, but the man is killing it already in apparel sales, which constitutes the major portion of non-green fee related revenue for the shop. That will NEVER change. Few locales are buying clubs there, and the visitors are looking for the essentials, not some award-winning, posh shop. A snug, well thought out shop is ALL that RD needs to provide for our golfers; anything else is just a silly attempt at status-matching, with the MEMBERSHIP footing the bill!

My call will made this week. Regretably, I'm not able to be across for the vote, but I appeal to the sanity of the members who are.. to vote AGAINST this ill-timed, ghastly excuse for "progress!"

Somberly,

Kris

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