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Patrick_Mucci

What an unexpected surprise
« on: July 14, 2012, 10:12:09 PM »
I was recently invited to Firestone to play the South, North and West courses.

I had played the South course years ago.

I had never played the North or the West course.

I liked the North course, but I absolutely loved the West course.

It was sensational.

WIDE fairways, large interesting greens, terrific bunkering, a skyline green, short holes, long holes, terrific par 3's, 4's and 5's

Out of 100 plays, i'd opt for the west 65, the south 25 and the north 10.

Who else has played all three and what was your assessment ?

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2012, 10:22:51 PM »
Pat, a few years ago and friend and I played 72 holes on one day.  We played the South first. I had played it previously so I knew what to expect, a long slog. We did play 16 four or five times until we actuall hit the speed slot our drive.  We played the North second and just loved it. We played the West last.  When we had finished we knew we had time for one more 18.  It was a toss-up between the North and the West.   We chose the West.  After the South course it was so much fun we couldn't resist. 
If I had to play 100, I'd play the North 40, the West 40, and the South 20.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2012, 03:52:19 AM »
Tommy,

It's just fun to play.

In addition, the greens were faster and firmer.

Inoticed, withe the size of the greens, that they had some really interesting and challenging hole locations.

Our play of the North was difficult because of an outing in front of us where the foursome in front of us  would take10 or more shots to get to the green, if they got to the green.  Fortunately, it was only for nine holes
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 04:06:32 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2012, 07:45:42 AM »
I was recently invited to tour Heaven. A fellow name Pete met me at the club drop and welcomed me through gilded doors. A bearded soul smiled without smiling, immediately warming my heart. I sensed that I was home, that I was fortunate, that I mattered. Have any of you been to Heaven? What's your take on the place?


This is what I will expect from now on, whenever I read that a new thread (with an abbreviated thought or incomplete notion as its title) has been posted by Pat.

Patrick, I've seen the Firestone water tower as I drove by on the highway. Nice water tower, but it doesn't compare to the Gaffney peach in South Carolina.

Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2012, 09:05:21 PM »
Ron,

Some have indicated that you add nothing to the discussions concerning golf course architecture.

Why would you make the above post and prove them correct ?

Ronald Montesano

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2012, 10:13:40 PM »
Patrick, I'm appalled! I can't believe that I've fooled ANYONE into believing that I add ANYTHING to these discussions.

Every court needs its jester. When he's not around and the cupboards are otherwise bare, you have me.

I won't deny that my "Tour of Heaven" reference may have come across as edgy. I've never read a single post of yours that began "Man, I played this dog track today called Pendejos Colgantes, but it had the bones of something special" or "Got in 36 at Culo Lleno last week~it's not much to look at, but it has some great angles and a few unexpected caroms."

Man, here's what I'm trying to say: I'm jealous as hell of the courses you play! I'll not sniff their clapboards in this lifetime or the next. I'm sorry if the "Tour of Heaven" rubbed you the wrong way. I'll be sure to keep tongue away from cheek in the future.

~A humbler, contrite Ron M.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2012, 10:27:05 PM »
Pat,

I can't express how much it disappoints me that you beat me to the punch re: the West!  I just joined Firestone this year and have now had the pleasure to play each course multiple times in a variety of conditions.  The West is definitely my favorite of the three and is a Fazio design the flies WAY below the radar.  You hit the nail on the head... It is just a fun golf course to play and the width certainly helps.  I also think it benefits from those who play the South and then make their way over to the West and see the obvious differences.

How much do I like the West?  I'll play 1-3 on the South as a warm up and then tee off on #1 at the West to start my round for real!

Virtual tour of the course:
http://www.virtualclub.com/CourseWalks/Firestone/west_course/hole01.asp

The course is routed in a horseshoe around the South on the front nine, with 9-18 situated west of the more famous South course on a hill.

My favorite holes:
#1 - nice opener that has a fairly wide fairway but actually pinches in on the right depending on how far you hit it.
#3 - uphill par 3, hard to hit it close when the pin is on the back shelf
#4 - driveable Par 4, could make 3 or 7 very easily
#6 - good long uphill par 4
#13 - risk/reward par 5 with a speed slot down the right feeding towards the water
#15 - very demanding second shot, bailout chipping area on the left is not an easy up and down
#18 - creek right of the green gives this hole some teeth on a short to mid iron second



« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 10:49:05 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2012, 11:19:58 PM »
Ron,

Firestone West was a totally unexpected surprise, just like The Outlaw at Desert Mountain.

I hadn't heard of the West course, so when I saw it while playing the South course I inquired about it, because the bunkering, greens and holes looked so different from the North and the South courses.

While the South course seems to get all the publicity as a PGA Tour stop, I was really impressed by the West.
It had everything I like about a golf course.   Wide fairways, variety, large greens, great bunkering, directional changes, elevation changes and a skyline green.  It was a real treat.

So, my purpose in posting was to alert those who never played it, or never heard of it, to put it on their list of courses to play.

As to playing dog tracks, I do get my share of invites to courses you might label as a dog track, but, I usually decline them.
Time is precious, and given my druthers, do I want to spend half a day playing a course I won't/don't like versus one I really like.

I met the fellow who invited me to Firestone when I was a guest at a Member-Guest last year.
He was in my foursome and we really hit it off and kept in touch, so when he invited me, and our host for last year's member-guest, I accepted.

I had a great time.
The weather held out, the company was great, the courses very good.

One of the highlights of the trip was on Friday afternoon, when we finished playing the North at 4:00.
Dinner wasn't until 7:00, so I said that I wanted to hit balls, but, one of the fellows said that we'd first have a drink on the second story porch overlooking the 9th green on the North.

I want to tell you, I haven't laughed so hard, for two hours as I did that afternoon.

As we were sitting on the porch, watching the golfers play the 9th, our host, I'll call him Bill, turned to the fellow who introduced us the previous year and said, I'll call him Roger, and said, "I'll bet you $ 1 that the guy in the fairway (80 yards) doesn't hit the green".  Roger says, "you got it"  I say, "I'm with Bill".   The guy hits it short of the green, in the left rough, so Bill and I win. Then I say, I bet he doesn't hit the green from there (20 yards)."  Roger says, "you got it."  The guy then hits it over the green by about 7 yards, into some pretty heavy rough.  So, I win again.  Now I say to Roger, "Give me 10 to 1 odds and I'll bet you $ 1 to $ 10 that he doesn't get it on the green"  Roger takes the bet.  The guy goes right under his ball, moving it about 6 inches.  I'm now laughing hysterically.
I say to Roger, "Give me 20 to 1 and I'll bet you another $ 1 that he doesn't hit the green on his next shot".  Roger says, "you got it"
The guy then blades the ball back over the green, down the fairway.  I now have tears in my eyes I'm laughing so hard, and so is Bill.
Bill has piggybacked all my bets and has the same bets with Roger.  Roger can't believe that these guys are so bad and that he's getting killed.

Now remember, we've been drinking for a while and the porch is now crowded with people who are witnessing our betting.

The golfer now goes back down the fairway and I say to Roger, "do you want another bet"
He says, "No".  Now the guy chips the ball onto the green 10 feet from the hole and Roger stands up and yells, "Hey, you in the blue shirt, you stink, you just cost me $ 100"  We laugh hysterically.

Now, the next foursome approaches.

A guy, tacking his way down the fairway/rough, is about 60 yards from the green and I say to Roger, " $ 5 says he doesn't hit the green"  Roger takes the bet.  He hits his ball into the right greenside bunker.  More laughter.
I say to Roger, "I'll bet you the guy doesn't hit the green from the bunker"  Roger takes the bet.  The guy leaves it in the bunker.
I bet Roger again, and again, and again.   The guy can't get the ball out of the bunker.  Bill, myself and our 4th, whom I'll call Ran, are laughing so hard we can't see.  Roger is pissed beyond belief.  He gets up and yells at the guy, "Go take some bunker lessons, you stink and you just cost me $ 100.  

Now, the whole porch is laughing and like a contagion, everyone is betting on everyshot every golfer is hitting.

For two hours, all we do is bet, drink, snack and laugh, laugh to the point where we can't see because we have tears in our eyes.

Roger, who is very quick witted, and very smart and very pissed, as he loses bet after bet after bet, is like a stand up comedian, his comments are even making those whom he's making fun of, laugh.

After about a dozen foursomes have come through,
in the next group, a guy has a ten foot putt, to two putt.
I had bet Roger that the guy would three putt.
So Roger, who's seen other golfers putt, stands up and yells the read to him.
Bill and I immediately protest, claiming that Roger has forfeited the bet for providing outside advice.
The guy on the green hears all of our arguing.
Roger stands up and yells, "This putt is worth alot of money to me, it breaks a cup to the left and it's fast."
I yell, "Don't believe him, he's really betting against you, he's betting that you'll miss it"
Now, even his foursome is laughing.
He misses the putt, Roger yells, "you suck, where did you learn to putt ?  I gave you the perfect read.
The entire porch is hysterical with laughter.

Now, we've been overserved considerably, except that I always order a very weak drink, and no matter what a golfer does, I tell Roger that he lost another bet.
Roger says, "I don't remember making that bet".  I say, "That's because you've had too much to drink".
We laugh and laugh and laugh as each group goes through.
Nothing is sacred.
The way they dress, the way they swing, the results of their shots, the entire porch is hysterical.
At the same time, workman are putting up the stands/bleachers.
We tell some golfers that they should give up golf and help build the stands.

I don't think I've had so much fun, for two straight hours, and I don't think I"ve laughed that hard, for two straight hours, as I did Friday afternoon.

As we're leaving to get dressed for dinner, Roger says to me, "and you were wondering what your were going to do for the rest of the afternoon.  Was this better than hitting balls or what ?"

The next day, we're playing # 9 and some guys are sitting up on the porch.
I hit a good drive and pull my approach slighly left and short, in the greenside rough on the upslope.
I play a running sand wedge to about 6 feet and make the putt.
I look up and ask the guys on the porch, "who owes me half their action ?"  The guys say, "what do you mean ?"  I say, "If you're not betting on the play of the golfers on this hole, you're missing out on alot of fun and entertainment, now how much is my cut for making that putt ?"

We really had a terrific time and I commented to the fellows that golf was really a great game because of the people we meet and play with.  The comaraderie, the challenge, the bantering, the jokes are all part of this great game.

So, what's the point of me telling you this ?

You referenced "Dog tracks".  But, the truth of the matter is that it almost doesn't matter where you play if you play with great guys.
Sure, NGLA and CPC are great golf courses, but, I've seen people play those courses and be miserable.
So, what good did it do them to play those majestic courses ?   They didn't have any fun.
Given the trade off between a great course and being miserable and a dog track and having the time of your life, the dog track gets my vote.  The only caveat being "slow play".

I love the challenge that golf presents, but, I also want to have fun, and you can have as much fun on a "dog track" as you can on one of the iconic golf courses.  It just depends upon who you're playing with and who you are.

I've been lucky in that I've been invited to play iconic courses, but, I think that part of the reason I receive invitations is that I enjoy playing with "golfers" and they enjoy playing with me.   Not people who play golf, but "golfers"  I think there's something special about them and I consider myself to be one of them.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2012, 11:36:28 PM »
Geoffrey,

Interesting selection of holes.

While I liked all of them, I liked # 2, 4, 8, 9, 13, 15, 17 and 18.

I liked the collection of par 3's, 4's and 5's.

The West is a course I could play every day, and never tire of it.

I was shocked that it was a Fazio design.
The bunkering looked more like AWT and others.

I think you're lucky to be a member.
You have three, very distinct and different courses to choose from.

I also liked that fact that the West was more influenced by the wind, especially the back nine.

I played the Blue tees and found it a wonderful challenge with a terrific mixture of long and short holes.

# 6, 8, 10, 15 and 18 were solid par 4's requiring two big shots.
And, # 15 is a terrific skyline green, as is # 9 from closer to the green.

It was just flat out fun to play and we had a great match.

The two fellows I played with were one down against us going into 15.
I had hit a driver, 2-iron pin high and parred the hole.  One fellow hit his 3rd into the bowl short and left, then holed a 35+ footer to a back hole location.  We're still one up.   I hit 3-iron into # 16 and make par, the other opponent holes a putt from off the green for birdie.  We're all even.   I miss a birdie putt on # 17 and they make par, we're all even.  I hit a good drive and 6 iron to 20 feet and the opponent who made the 35+ footer on # 15, drains the putt from off the green for birdie and we lose 1 down.

The key to the match.
On # 1, one of the opponents, who birdied # 16, knocks in a 20 footer for a half on # 1, while the other opponent gets up and down for halves on # 4 and 5 and then the other guy knocks in a 45 footer for a par and a half on # 6.

Today, when he was my partner, the "mad putter/bomber" didn't make a putt over 10 feet.

I could play that course every day.

I also liked the North, but, I'd tweak it a little, mostly getting rid of some trees.

I also thought that the greens on the West were superior to those on the North and South.

Enjoy Firestone, what a great collection of courses.

Tom MacWood

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2012, 06:17:53 AM »
I've played the North and South, but never played the West. I will have to check it out. Another couple of interesting courses not too far from Akron: Canton Brookside and Congress Lake.

Kris Shreiner

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2012, 07:28:07 AM »
Pat,

Glad you had such a merry experience at Firestone. I've been fortunate enough to play there on several occasions with one of the VERY few full women members there who is a fine player and super gal. The facility is well-run and I totally concur with your and others ratings of the respective courses for their interest and enjoyment.

It's is a shame they don't have a caddie program. The demographics and quality of the ground to have one is certainly there. It would be a tremendous boost for community youth in that area and would further elevate what is already a pretty fine golf experience. The management style trends a little to the corporate model, no surprise there, so I guess that's why caddie golf is absent. Oh well. 

Cheers,
Kris
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Jim Franklin

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2012, 08:29:54 AM »
Nice story Pat.
Mr Hurricane

BHoover

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2012, 09:13:11 AM »
Pat,

Glad you had such a merry experience at Firestone. I've been fortunate enough to play there on several occasions with one of the VERY few full women members there who is a fine player and super gal. The facility is well-run and I totally concur with your and others ratings of the respective courses for their interest and enjoyment.

It's is a shame they don't have a caddie program. The demographics and quality of the ground to have one is certainly there. It would be a tremendous boost for community youth in that area and would further elevate what is already a pretty fine golf experience. The management style trends a little to the corporate model, no surprise there, so I guess that's why caddie golf is absent. Oh well. 

Cheers,
Kris

It's been a couple years since I last played at Firestone, but a partner at my old law firm, who is a member, told me that the club recently did begin a caddie program.  This is only hearsay, but I think that caddies are now available at Firestone.  It makes sense because all the courses are good walking courses.

Michael George

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2012, 10:23:47 AM »
Pat:

I am glad that you enjoyed Firestone so much.  When I was joining a club it was between Firestone and Sharon.  Proximity to my house made Sharon the choice but Firestone is a great place.

I was glad that you recounted your time in the 55th hole.  Was Fuzz the bartender?  He is a great guy and literally knows every member in the club.  I have often said that I think Firestone has the best locker room that I have ever been in.  Great bar inside and on the patio.  Great tv area inside with leather couches.  4 bedrooms overlooking the 1st tee.  However, Pat is right as the balcony makes the experience.  Wagering on teams playing up the 9th is a common practice.  I have been the recipient of a few cheers and many more boos as I hit shots on the 9th.  Just a great place.  Federal Express rents the entire patio out for the tournament at a huge price.

Also, the practice range at Firestone is pretty hard to beat.  Great putting green, chipping area and long range. 

Re: the courses, my favorite is the North.  I love the finish of both 9s ---- 7-9 on the front are each great holes and 16-18 are great.  I also love the 12th hole.  They removed tons of trees on the left side of the fairway to give you a view over the lake to the clubhouse.  Maybe I am a sucker for asthetics because the North is the prettiest course on the property with a gorgeous lake.

The South is clearly the best test of golf, but it is not a ton to play (the routing is boring, but the holes are good).  Just punishes bad shots.   Its green complexes are really special and don't get enough discussion.  The green complexes are really good and make for some tough shots.  Holes #3, #8, #13, #16 and #18 are great golf holes.  Par 3s are challenging but boring and hurt the course IMHO.  If you want a light round, the South is not for you.  But for the serious golfer, it is a great test.

The West is often overlooked (even by locals), but it is really enjoyable to play.  It has the best golf hole on the entire property in #15.  It is a long par 4 that plays on top of this huge ridge with a wide fairway and the green is at the highest point of the entire Firestone property.  The green complex is really awesome with all kinds of contours.  It is then followed by 3 great holes in the par 3 16th, the reachable par 5 17th and the par 4 18th.   My law partner was the President of Firestone when the club re-did the West course with Fazio and is very proud of it.

Pat - did you stay on the property in the Villas off 16 green.  They are incredibly nice and really add to the experience. 

Glad you enjoyed it.  If you are ever in town again, private message me as I think you would also enjoy Sharon (about 15 minutes away).
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Eric Smith

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2012, 10:44:23 AM »
I have been the recipient of a few cheers and many more boos as I hit shots on the 9th.  

What is wrong with these people? ;D

Michael George

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Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2012, 10:55:10 AM »
Eric:

It is part of the experience.  It would not work at most clubs (and surely would be out of line) but it works there.  There is an interaction between the group playing 9 and the balcony that just works and is all in good fun. 

A good story:  I was playing the 9th with 3 members.  We get up to the green and I am in a short right bunker with a back right pin.  One of the members of my group starts betting the balcony that I would get up and down (we had teed off 10 so the 9th was our last hole).  After about 5 minutes of settling bets, I hit my bunker shot to 3 feet and get up and down.  There was a chorus of boos as I walked off the tee..... until I got up there and bought a round with the money that was just made.   

It really is just good fun.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2012, 12:52:40 PM »
Kris,

We had caddies as did many of the groups on the course.
Our caddies were nice fellows and good caddies.
I agree with the corp model comment.

Mike,

I stayed on property, in the lodge behind the 18th green of the North.

I met Fuzz

I had a spectacular three days of golf.
18 Friday, 36 Saturday and 18 Sunday.

I think the North could be dramatically improved with more tree removal, such as to the right of 7 on the down hill par 5, giving you an unrestricted view of the lake and making the second shot dicier.

Three terrific courses.

Tom MacWood, get out to the West course ASAP, it's a treat.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What an unexpected surprise
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2012, 10:23:05 PM »
Looking at the West course from the South course, and playing the West course, I never would have guessed that Fazio was the architect.

Perhaps one could say the same thing about the "Short Course" at Pine Valley.

Would anyone playing the short course, without prior knowledge, guess that Fazio was the architect ?

What intriqued me about the West course was the look and position of the bunkers.

Does anyone know how the renovation of West course came into being ?
I was told that the "old" West course wasn't getting adequate play and that there was a desire to make it more user friendly, ergo the wide fairways and large greens

Who was the guiding force behind the renovation of the West course ?

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