[Mike Policano]

Actually it is not the R&A but the Council of National Golf Unions that governs handicaps in the UK, I believe.

[jeffwarne]

Even when playing for their club championship Saunton members get it.

Tim,

With the utmost of respect, this caveat is not helpful.

The "we're playing a match" excuse is one of the most common I have heard for inconsiderate golfers in the UK clogging up a course. And at traditional courses too. A 4 ball not holding up a one ball is EXTREMELY rare. Let's not romanticise golf in the UK too much. There is a lot of slow golf here, too. The reason comes down to two things: (a) not understanding the rules of golf (refer to page one) and general lack of consideration for others. It's universal.

While not the UK, one of my worst pace of play overseas experiences was at Dooks.

Being a fourball on a pretty empty course, we spotted a two ball behind us and waited for them as we were approaching a par 3, and thought that would be the best place to let them pass.
They took forever to play the hole and explained they were playing a match.
They then proceeded to not only hold us up on every shot, but back up the entire course behind us, most of which had teed off an hour or more behind them.
Thankfully, on the back nine one of the angry women who was behind and seemingly glaring at us , saw where the problem lay and gave them a tongue lashing not fit for mixed company.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,

An excellent tale. I have to ask, did you call the golfers at Liphook through? If so, they can have no complaints.

Pace of play is often a misunderstood concept, in part because the powers that be have become fixated with telling everyone to keep up with the group in front. Whilst it's desirable to attempt to keep up with golfers in front it isn't always possible. After all, why expect a four ball to be as quick as a one or two ball? The key, in my humble opinion, is simply to ensure you don't get in anyone else's way. No ifs, no buts, no "but I thought we were playing at a reasonable pace." Just step aside if you are caught and there is room to breath in front of you.

I was toward the front end of the groups teeing off, with other Buda participants behind us.  We were always tight with the group in front of us, so no, we didn't have the opportunity to let the members go through.  Nevertheless, as guest of the club, I am sensitive to their concerns.  Four hours for a ball seems reasonable, but when one is in Rome ....!

The USGA has a policy which states that if a group is one clear hole behind, it is to wave the group following through regardless of how many players are in that group.  It further recommends that if a group is playing slower than the group behind them and there is room ahead (less than a full hole), it should wave that group through.  As it is often the case in the U.S. where fourballs are very common, singles and twosomes get behind several foursomes and get exasperated about the speed of play.  A partial solution is for golfers to join up, but quite often don't want to.  On a crowded course, moving aside and allowing "fast players" through all day long is not a better alternative for anyone.  Adopting a reasonable pace of play policy with some form of non-confrontational enforcement seems to be a good way to go.

[Bill_Yates]

Mike,
To answer your question regarding the impact of the handicap system in the U.S., this issue simply emphasizes the point I was making in the article, and that is that we play a different game here than they do in GB.

We tend  play against the course, they play against each other.  In playing against the course (ie the scorecard), we feel the need to document every stroke of every game, even when we are using the match play formats. In and of itself, this is neither good nor bad.  But I feel the result is that Americans tend to treat golf more like brain surgery than a game.  In GB and elsewhere, handicaps are determined by playing a monthly medal, a stroke play game played from the medal tees for the course, and those are the scores that are used to calculate the player's handicap. And as mentioned above, we use the score of every game we play to calculate our handicap.

In short we approach the game from two different directions, we're more stroke play focused and they're more match play focused. And that is one reason why direct comparisons in GB and U.S. playing times are for the most part meaningless.

[Paul Gray]

Brian,

I entirely echo your comments. This subject really gets my goat.

That little book the R&A bring out every three years is all too often treated as some quaint oddity. Not for the first time, it states:

It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

The above quote is not followed by any of the following provisos:

Don't bother if you're on the 12th hole. After all, there are only six more after this one.
Don't bother if you're a two ball and they're a four. We don't want your fragile pride being dented.
Don't bother if you're in a match. We appreciate that winning the Winterbottom Memorial Salver is bigger than life itself.
Don't bother if you've been a member forever and you don't recognise the people behind. You didn't do your bit on the committee just to have these kids holding you up for all of three minutes. At your age, ever moment is precious.
Don't bother if the weather is bad. It's far more important that you now get back to the clubhouse asap. Never mind them behind.
Don't bother if you've got to be somewhere. Let's just assume that the people behind have all day. And regardless, they almost certainly don't earn what you do so their affairs are insignificant compared to yours.
Don't bother if you're on a public course. You've paid just as much as they have.

Like I said, no ifs, no buts, no "but I thought we were playing at a reasonable pace."

[ward peyronnin]

I love this thread.

I have recently joined an advisory board at Victoria National and this came up because of the increase in "resort type" rounds with desultory times ensuing. Imagine my incredulity when the GM explained they were on top of it and had discovered the Indiana Golf Associated had deemed pace of play goals to be 4:45 for their tourneys   I now have ammo...the course is difficult but play to keep moving for  only the .1% will over power it

Lest the Uk become the gold std I must say that at Deal this summer the British Amateur difficulty quotient was not enhanced by the 4:45 ROUND   Whittaker and I suffered thru behind members who had NO intention of waving our two ball thru. Inexplicable!~!

[Bryan Icenhower]

As Keith has mentioned, Rivermont is very effective in their pace of play management thank to Chris Cupit.  The system is very similar to what Pat posts, and consists of multiple levels:

The Pace of Play allows a for a 4:10 maximum round.  There are clocks on the range, 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 18th holes with the clocks set for the Pace – tee off at 9:00 am and the clocks at every hole should read 9:00 or earlier.  

On weekends you must finish within the Pace guidelines or else the entire group is banished from teeing off before 10:00 am the next time they play.  

The tee sheets are posted in the locker room.  If you failed to keep Pace, your group is highlighted indicating your penalty for the next time you want to tee off.

Chris posted the full Rivermont policy here in a previous thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54726.0.html

[Lou_Duran]

Lou: letting players through "all day long"? Come off it...

It's only confrontational if the offending parties make it so. And, yes, those ignorant of the rules of golf usually do sadly...

Excuse me!  Come off what?  Maybe something was lost in translation.  Or perhaps it is a cultural thing (I've heard stories of singles waiting for long periods at TOC, rebuffed time and time again by twos and threes, presumably members with tee times who don't want to be bothered letting a stranger join them).  But if you believe that on a course full of foursomes each group should stand aside every time a single wants to play through, well, I wouldn't want to be playing when you are.  It is not unusual in the U.S. for clubs to have a policy stating that singles and twosomes have no standing on the weekends.  There are courses that won't let a single go out on busy days, making them wait until a group of three or four can be put together.  A good part of playing golf is doing so in the company of others, and why some of the most enjoyable clubs don't necessarily have the best courses, but great memberships.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Lou,

A few yeas ago, didn't the USGA change the statement in the rule book that singlses have no standing on the golf course ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The Palms GC in LaQuinta, CA could be the fastest play according to this article:

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/jan/02/achenbach-palms-golf-club-offers-fastest-play-us/

[Sean_A]

Sheehy is right of course. Its proper that 1s have no standing on a golf course.  However, its also proper to allow a 1 thru if you are holding him up and he has room ahead.  This is the case for any size group behind.  In any case, Sheehy is one of the quicker players I know and I know he has to put up with some frustration quite a bit while playing.  

Pace of play in the UK is becoming more and more a problem.  There is no question the game is getting slower as the culture of the game has shifted away from 4somes toward 4ball and medal golf.  Some clubs have it basically sorted by sticking to 2balls, but even then (at Deal and Rye) I have been caught more than once taking 4 hours as a 2ball because folks in front were knuckleheads - and it wasn't always visitors (though that is usually the case).  I have had 5 hour games in the UK and not just associated wiith GCA.com events  .  

As Paul suggests, more people are not following basic courtesy by not playing fast as they can (or at least not far off) and not allowing people through.  When I first started playing golf in the UK back in 1991, it was rare for a group looking for a ball or generally just playing obviously slower not to allow the group behind through.  Now I think one can expect not to be allowed through.  

That said, it isn't just poor golfer behaviour causing problems, as the type of game as shifted toward 4ball, courses have narrowed and rough is more brutal.  Sometimes this is a conscious decision on the part of clubs to keep courses "championship" ready and sometimes its down to budget pressures.  Of course, this means that in high season it can often be the case with a 4ball that on practically every hole someone is looking for a ball - this can add an incredible amount of time to a round.  Playing as a 2ball greatly reduces the risk of lost time due to lost balls.  I expect budget pressures to continue and also expect the golfers new to the game from the 90s forward to continue playing the game as they learned it .  Therefore, I don't see much quicker golf happening in the future unless golfers choose to play more 2ball golf.  That of course would also mean less revenue for many clubs (unless green fees were significantly hiked) and therefore even more budget pressure which will result in less chance of rough being properly maintained.  

The upshot is I think a few things are critical:

#1. Golfers need to be more thoughtful of others.  Not only should one keep up, but also be aware and allow quicker folks through. I guarantee that after a summer of standing aside golfers would play faster.

#2. Golfers need to consider which type of course they are playing and adjust their behaviour accordingly.  For instance, when playing a tough course with brutal rough, why not drop a ball in the fairway and play 3 after a quick look for lost balls?  Also, maybe its wiser to play tough courses as 2balls (or 3balls even) rather than 4balls.  Okay, that might mean groups can't play the exact game they want, but that is a small sacrifice to keep the game moving.  

#3. Consider picking up when caught in extreme difficulty and it is obvious you are dusted.  Or perhaps, if one wants "to get their money worth" drop in a lovely spot and hit a few more from there.  Its understandble thats folks want to experience the course fully while visiting new courses, but golfers have a higher duty to make the game enjoyable for all - within reason of course.  Whatever you do, don't make guys still in the hole wait for you when you are out of the hole.  That means dropping the medal attitude and focusing on the actual game you are playing.  

#4. Don't play medal games unless you have to.  If you want to keep a card, play Stableford.  That makes #3 very obvious.  Whatever you do, don't play two different games at once. IE, don't keep a card and play matchplay.  This is inconsiderate and not playing as fast as you can.  

#5. For any decent size group, organizers need to be aware of who the problem players are and put them out last with instructions to allow groups through.  The last thing visiting groups want to do is clog up a course and get glares or worse, meet confrontation back in the house.  Think of your organizer, slow play can cause him great embarassment and grief.  

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

Lou,

A few yeas ago, didn't the USGA change the statement in the rule book that singlses have no standing on the golf course ?

Certainly the R&A removed the singles statement. All games now have equal standing, regardless of numbers.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou,

A few yeas ago, didn't the USGA change the statement in the rule book that singlses have no standing on the golf course ?

Certainly the R&A removed the singles statement. All games now have equal standing, regardless of numbers.

This is in the Etiquette section of the 2012-15 USGA Rules of Golf:

 Pace of Play
 Play at Good Pace and Keep Up

 Players should play at a good pace. The Committee may establish pace of
 play guidelines that all players should follow.

 It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a
 clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind
 to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a
 group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can
 play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.

 Priority on the Course
 Unless otherwise determined by the Committee, priority on the course is
 determined by a group’s pace of play. Any group playing a whole round is
 entitled to pass a group playing a shorter round. The term “group” includes
 a single player.



Pat,

The Committee has the delegated authority to establish pace of play policies.  As I noted earlier, there are clubs which have a "singles and twosomes have no standing" rule on designated days, typically weekend and holiday mornings when their members or customers are there in great numbers, most which play in groups of four (at a former home club of many years, fivesomes were nearly as common).

Brian or Sean may believe that a busy course with mostly foursomes is an aberration, and perhaps it is where they play, but it certainly isn't in many Metro areas of the U.S. (think of any muni and some of the privates in SoCal- ever been to Riviera on a Friday afternoon?  TommyN's beloved Rec Park any day?).  Golf in the U.S. is primarily medal play, foursomes, and 4+ hours.  I wish the latter wasn't so, but it is.  To follow the USGA's sensible etiquette guidelines to the letter, it would only make the pace of play slower, and therefore, violate their spirit.

To answer Brian's question, I am rarely in the situation of having to let singles through all day because if the course is plugged-up, singles typically have the good manners of staying behind, picking up and trying to go around the clog, or if neither are desirable options, doing something else.  However, since I would much rather wait on the group in front of me than have someone wait on me, I have many times waved singles and twosomes through only to have to wait on them.  Where I play mostly in the mid to late afternoon during the week, it is not unusual to let two, three, or even four singles go through.  It would be easier for me if these guys would join into twosomes and still play in under 3 hours, but it is their preference not to be social and I can live with the slight inconvenience.

Rather then impose a rigid system that can't possibly satisfy everyone's preferences, why not apply a bit of common sense and the golden rule.  Private clubs in particular have the opportunity to establish reasonable pace of play policies.  The USGA etiquette guidelines are a good starting point.  My suggestion for the zip golfers is to find a place and time to get their kicks.  I enjoy a two-hour round when I am busy and the first tee time is often a good opportunity provided that the club doesn't have an issue with me bumping into the maintenance staff, and I don't cause undue delay on them to prepare the course for the rest of the members.  Unless one has his own Wolf Point, it is Always a balancing act.  I feel like I'm beating this dead horse.  Enough said.        

[Garland Bayley]

Lou,

Thanks for making me aware of the "Where a
 group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can
 play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through."
statement in the rules. Now, I will never seek to join a four ball, as
four balls are required to let me or me and my buddy to play through.  

That addition (I assume it is a recent addition, as I don't recall reading it before)
is poorly motivated in my opinion. If I go to a course that has all its tee times filled, and I
get out as a single or duo, I essentially have implicitly signed on to the pace of play there.
I see no need to let me through if the group or groups in front are keeping in position.

[Sean_A]

Sweet Lou

I rarely play public courses so I rarely experience a truly packed course.  That said, my last game out was a steady stream of 4balls.  They were lined up on the 1st tee - haven't seen anything like that in quite some time!  Yes, it was slower than I would have liked, but I couldn't really expect to move any faster (dead on 4 hours) nor could I expect to play through - no point.  All this said, this situation is a rarity for me (I do try to avoid packed courses).  I am talking more about slow rounds when there isn't really the push of golfers to cause an issue.  The issue in my experience is really about behaviour, not numbers of golfers.  Though I very well know that on public courses in the US the crunch times are hell with the worst possible combo of loads of golfers of which a significant percentage are thoughtless as to quickening pace of play.  All I can say is if that is a problem, avoid those times - I would.

Ciao

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