[Wayne_Kozun]

This was released today - only one change in the top 10 - Tobiano is in and Royal Montreal - Blue is out.  Sagebrush just missed the top 10 at 11.

1. National
2. St. George's
3. Hamilton
4. Jasper
5. Capilano
6. Highlands Links
7. Banff
8. Beacon Hall
9. Muskoka Bay
10. Tobiano

My initial comments:
I prefer older courses so I don't really agree with the National at #1 although it is a great course.
Mt Bruno moved up from 72 to 56 but it is still should be in the top 25.
Devil's Paintbrush deserves to be higher.
Copper Creek at 36 - WTF!!!! Doesn't deserve to be in the top 100 in Toronto.
The public courses in Muskoka, except Muskoka Bay, continue to fall.  Taboo is 41 down from 23 - it was 11 in 2006.
Nice to see Victoria move up to 23.
Crowbush is down to 16 from 12 in 2010.  I personally don't think it belongs in the top 30.
Glen Abbey contines to fall - it is now 43 and used to always be near the top.

[Mark Saltzman]

Any list that has Copper Creek ahead of Scarboro should be ignored completely, but since this is 'the' list in Canada I guess it should be discussed.

I don't think National is the best course in Canada; I don't think it's even the best modern course.  It's very good, but I think penal design will almost always be trumped by strategic design and in that respect both Devil's Paintbrush and Coppinwood are better.  I suspect Sagebrush and Blackhawk are better as well, but I haven't seen them.

Re the muskoka courses: I think Bigwin, Rocky Crest and Oviinbyrd are all better than Muskoka Bay, which I do not see as being near the best 10 courses in the country.  MB is dramatic, easily the most scenic of the three, but I have found that on repeat plays (though I do not have repeat plays at Oviinbyrd) it does not hold up well to Bigwin or Rocky.  Fwiw, I think Rocky Crest is McBroom's very best work.

Hamilton, in current form, is not in the top-3 in Canada.  I would love to hear the justification of its ranking from a panelist; the worst mowing lines of any potentially great course I've ever seen.

There should be a much greater gap between the two Devils.  Paintbrush should be several spots higher and Pulpit many spots lower.

The high ranking of Georgian Bay Club here and elsewhere continues to confound me.  Aside from the very pretty and interesting par-3 3rd(?) there isn't much there, is there?

Essex and Scarboro are many spots too low.

Nice to see Cherry Hill make its first entry at number 77; interesting that it is 10 spots higher than Lookout Point which has been ranked for several years.  Perhaps CH just did not have enough panelist votes, or maybe it was Ian Andrew's work that got it noticed.

I have to revisit the list for any other observances.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I agree regading the Devils, and also regarding Scarboro, but I am biased being a member .  Scarboro is also a far better golf course than Rosedale.

It is interesting that for Hamilton on the show they showed the 15th hole which has bunkering that is totally inconsistent with the rest of the course.  I agree regarding the mowing lines at Hamilton, but I still think it is a fantastic course and I would put it above the National.

It will be interesting to see where Cabot Links comes into the list in two years.  Cape Breton could have two top 20 courses.

[Mark Saltzman]

The bunkering on 15 at Hamilton is terrible.  Almost as bad as the mowing lines on 10.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I find 10 (aka 1 South) to be one of the easiest holes on the course.

[Ronald Montesano]

I realize that this statement will be taken every wrong way possible, but so be it. If I read Mark Saltzman's thoughts in the past with special attention (prior to meeting him) I do it doubly so now (having met and golfed with him.) He has a capacious memory and recalls facts, characteristics and nuances instantaneously. He loves to discuss golf courses and can do so without disrupting his smooth play.

I encourage you to find time to play with him. He is gregarious and a heck of a stick, and always interested in what his playing partners have to say.

Now that Cherry Hill is #77, I suspect it should move into top 75 with a few more rater playings. I suspect that it could move into the top 50 if enough see it. For such an undramatic piece of land (Lookout Point is blessed with far more natural curves) Travis got so much out of it. Ian Andrew deserves much replacing what greens committees took out, or for including what Travis might have missed.

[Tony Ristola]

This was released today - only one change in the top 10 - Tobiano is in and Royal Montreal - Blue is out.  Sagebrush just missed the top 10 at 11.

1. National
2. St. George's
3. Hamilton
4. Jasper
5. Capilano
6. Highlands Links
7. Banff
8. Beacon Hall
9. Muskoka Bay
10. Tobiano

My initial comments:
I prefer older courses so I don't really agree with the National at #1 although it is a great course.
Mt Bruno moved up from 72 to 56 but it is still should be in the top 25.
Devil's Paintbrush deserves to be higher.
Copper Creek at 36 - WTF!!!! Doesn't deserve to be in the top 100 in Toronto.
The public courses in Muskoka, except Muskoka Bay, continue to fall.  Taboo is 41 down from 23 - it was 11 in 2006.
Nice to see Victoria move up to 23.
Crowbush is down to 16 from 12 in 2010.  I personally don't think it belongs in the top 30.
Glen Abbey contines to fall - it is now 43 and used to always be near the top.

Curious... where is Royal Colwood, and did Vancouver Club make the list. I haven't seen the latter since 1984 and heard they did some changes.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tony,

Royal Colwood is #31. IMO, a little polish there and it's in the top-15, easy.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Jeff - what do you think of RC vs Victoria?  I played them both on a trip to Victoria a few years ago and I preferred Victoria, and not just for its spectacular location.

[Wayne_Kozun]

The word released is a hyperlink to the web page with the full ratings.  I am not familiar with the Vancouver club.  Are you sure you don't meant Capilano, Shaughnessy or Marine Drive, three of the better clubs in Vancouver.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jeff - what do you think of RC vs Victoria?  I played them both on a trip to Victoria a few years ago and I preferred Victoria, and not just for its spectacular location.

Wayne,

RC and Victoria are TOTALY DIFFERENT golf courses, as you know. I think if we polled 10 golfers, they'd be split on their preferences between the two - locations aside. I don't have a strong preference between the two but will say, if I lived in Victoria and was looking to join either club, my choice would be VGC. That's where I'd want to play everyday, there.

On the other hand, if you asked me which golf course in Canada I'd like to restore more than any other, I'd choose RC (and Shaughnessy).
 

[Robert Thompson]

I think Vancouver GC should be on the list.

This was released today - only one change in the top 10 - Tobiano is in and Royal Montreal - Blue is out.  Sagebrush just missed the top 10 at 11.

1. National
2. St. George's
3. Hamilton
4. Jasper
5. Capilano
6. Highlands Links
7. Banff
8. Beacon Hall
9. Muskoka Bay
10. Tobiano

My initial comments:
I prefer older courses so I don't really agree with the National at #1 although it is a great course.
Mt Bruno moved up from 72 to 56 but it is still should be in the top 25.
Devil's Paintbrush deserves to be higher.
Copper Creek at 36 - WTF!!!! Doesn't deserve to be in the top 100 in Toronto.
The public courses in Muskoka, except Muskoka Bay, continue to fall.  Taboo is 41 down from 23 - it was 11 in 2006.
Nice to see Victoria move up to 23.
Crowbush is down to 16 from 12 in 2010.  I personally don't think it belongs in the top 30.
Glen Abbey contines to fall - it is now 43 and used to always be near the top.

Curious... where is Royal Colwood, and did Vancouver Club make the list. I haven't seen the latter since 1984 and heard they did some changes.

[Mark Saltzman]

I realize that this statement will be taken every wrong way possible, but so be it. If I read Mark Saltzman's thoughts in the past with special attention (prior to meeting him) I do it doubly so now (having met and golfed with him.) He has a capacious memory and recalls facts, characteristics and nuances instantaneously. He loves to discuss golf courses and can do so without disrupting his smooth play.

I encourage you to find time to play with him. He is gregarious and a heck of a stick, and always interested in what his playing partners have to say.

Now that Cherry Hill is #77, I suspect it should move into top 75 with a few more rater playings. I suspect that it could move into the top 50 if enough see it. For such an undramatic piece of land (Lookout Point is blessed with far more natural curves) Travis got so much out of it. Ian Andrew deserves much replacing what greens committees took out, or for including what Travis might have missed.

Ron,

Thank you very much!

Re Cherry Hill: If Essex, which is without doubt the best example of flat land architecture in Ontario, is not a top-50 course (per Score) than Cherry Hill has little chance of cracking the top 50. Boring land, strategic (though not flamboyant) bunkering and a great set of greens seems to do little to impress the Score panel.

I expect Cherry Hill will make an appearance on the next GW ranking as long as it receives a sufficient number of votes.

[Joel_Stewart]

Is Cabot Links going to make the top 10 and if so, where?

[Mark Saltzman]

Is Cabot Links going to make the top 10 and if so, where?

First step is best new in November.

[Wayne_Kozun]

A course has to be open for two years to be in the rankings.  It will be eligible for the next rankings in 2014.  I believe Score also does top new courses in odd years so it will likely win that next year.

Don't forget that a bunch of things factor into the rankings, including people actually seeing the course, so they need to get a bunch of the rankers out there.  Many have already visited prior to the course being open, and in the first few weeks.

[Ronald Montesano]

Ahh, the truth, how she hurts and enlightens. I must make a trip to Essex; maybe I'll become a knower of flatland courses.

[Mark Saltzman]

Ahh, the truth, how she hurts and enlightens. I must make a trip to Essex; maybe I'll become a knower of flatland courses.

Ron, get to Essex, I think you will really enjoy it.

Re Cherry Hill.  Score has The Ridge at Manitou and Copper Creek many spots ahead of Cherry Hill and Lookout Point.  Let's just say I don't think the list is perfect.

[Matthew MacKay]

What the heck, I'll wade in...

Too High - National, Hamilton, Beacon Hall, Muskoka Bay, Royal Montreal Blue, Westmount, Crowbush, Wolf Creek Old (the New course is better), Devils Pulpit, Stewart Creek, Georgian Bay Club, Copper Creek, Priddis Greens, King Valley, Cobble Beach, Deerhurst, Marine Drive

Too Low - Highlands Links, Toronto, Shaughnessy, St. Thomas, Essex, Mt. Bruno, Scarboro, Brantford, Cherry Hill, Summit, Lookout Point, Cataraqui, Mad River

Should absolutely be on the list - Kawartha, Royal Ottawa, Lora Bay, Wildfire, Montebello, Grandview, Wolf Creek New

Could merit consideration - Sarnia, Point Grey, Cutten, Craigowen, Credit Valley, Galt, Dundas Valley, Kingswood, Islesmere, National Pines, Oshawa, Royal Montreal Red, Beverley, Highland (London), Islington, Lakeview, Ottawa Hunt, Tarandowah, Bond Head South, Niakwa, St. Charles, Pine Ridge, Lake Joseph

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