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Bill Gayne

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Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2012, 07:42:59 PM »
Thanks, I like the pictures.

David Kelly

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Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2012, 07:56:32 PM »
Mark,

Are you saying 25 lost balls from a foursome during the course of a single round?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2012, 04:46:21 AM »
Thank you Mark, a great tour.

You are most discrete. unlike the ‘typical’ commentator on this site, but you do seem to have skirted around indicating where you see this in terms of Quality.  You’ve probably seen more of the links of GB&I than any of us and I value your opinions (Still dig out your Times Guide).

I wonder if I can temp you to indicate your feelings on where it stands, compared to the great ones?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 04:53:07 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2012, 04:51:51 AM »


How is Gary playing these days?

Approaching the green the fairway climbs through a minefield of bunkers.


Robin is currently sitting across from me in the BA lounge at Aberdeen airport, waiting for our delayed flight back to Heathrow. I too will chip in, when I get home and get the pictures off my camera.

Jack - I agree it has something of an Irish feel to it.


Did I miss the thread where the invites were handed out? Who else is going to admit being there. Glad you all had a good time.  

What with the Cabot links opening we have another kind GCA event .I suggest we call it The Newest Major.

Where's next? ;)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 04:54:52 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2012, 04:09:00 PM »
Tony, I am not a good enough golfer to make any sort of pronouncement. All I can do is report objectively on what I see. I fall short of ranking this course against any others of the big time simply because I am not a good enough golfer - end of statement. That said, I can still identify a good or great golf course, despite my lamentable play. In playing this course I was totally objective. I had no obligations to Trump or Hawtree. I am not saying it is better or worse than its neighbours Royal Aberdeen or Cruden Bay. I would say that it is different from anything I have played and that what is achieved is remarkable.

Who is genuinely equipped to rank this course?

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2012, 04:18:41 PM »
Well, everyone can rank it by how much fun they had playing it compared to other courses.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2012, 05:40:23 PM »
Just had a look at the photos and not really had a close look to the replies - my first instance is that the course looks like an 'artifical' links course going through natural dunes. I would say Hawtree has over "Trumped" with the bunkering which I think does not not pretty or trying to fit in with its surroundings. If it was me I would use Royal County Down as a precedent with its natural deep blowout bunkers, which would fit in better with the natural dunes setting rather than the revetted bunkers. Having watched the Scottish Open at Castle Stuart - I can help feeling that Castle Stuart is made to look more natural whereas the Trump course is in effect the opposite.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2012, 06:03:32 PM »

Robin is currently sitting across from me in the BA lounge at Aberdeen airport, waiting for our delayed flight back to Heathrow. I too will chip in, when I get home and get the pictures off my camera.

Jack - I agree it has something of an Irish feel to it.


Did I miss the thread where the invites were handed out? Who else is going to admit being there. Glad you all had a good time.  

What with the Cabot links opening we have another kind GCA event .I suggest we call it The Newest Major

Where's next? ;)
[/quote]

Tony

5 years of graft with Hawtree earnt me my ticket.  Never had projects like this in my day!
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

William_G

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Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2012, 07:59:16 PM »
thanks for the pics! looks beautiful and difficult to play

it's funny how "stabilize" is used to try and explain how the owners are trying to control sand dunes that have been naturally moving all the time for centuries

definitely a risk was taken here by Mr. Trump, but it looks good as far as the golf goes!
It's all about the golf!

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2012, 04:07:25 AM »
I have to say the course looks really good. The rough is brutal almost everywhere in GB this year due to the rain. Felt the course was overbunkered at points and don't like the walls used on the burn but hats off to Martin Hawtree he seems to have produced the goods.

Mark,

do the fairways feel out of character with the surroundings due to their reported flatness?

Jon

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2012, 09:14:31 AM »
I don't think the fairways are flat. There is plenty of movement in quite a lot of them, some of it gentle, some of it strong. I certainly didn't get the feeling that the fairways were rolled out between the dunes. They were quite cleverly tied in to the existing features in a way MacKenzie would have recognised. As for revetted bunkers vs blow out ones that's a matter of personal taste. I suspect that revetted bunkers would be more expected by visitors than whiskery ones. There are whiskery tees and those seem to be objectionable to some.

George Pazin

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Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2012, 09:28:42 AM »
Thanks for the thoughtful writeup on the other thread, Mark. One quick question, regarding lost balls:

Would you lose a similar number of balls if you had played at the same level at some of the other notable venues, such as Muirfield, Birkdale, Sandwich, Turnberry, etc?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2012, 09:30:48 AM »
Thanks for the thoughtful writeup on the other thread, Mark. One quick question, regarding lost balls:

Would you lose a similar number of balls if you had played at the same level at some of the other notable venues, such as Muirfield, Birkdale, Sandwich, Turnberry, etc?
Wrong Mark but I am normally very disappointed to lose more than one ball in a round at Muirfield and I'm a mid-teens handicapper.  That said, the rough everywhere in the UK this year is crazy thick, so I might accept losing a few more this summer. 
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2012, 10:52:03 AM »
George,

I suppose I lost about 8 balls at Trump. I suspect I would lose at least as many at Lytham were I to play it as it is this week for the Open. Even at Wilmslow, on paper a much easier course, I have lost six in a round this year - the rough is preposterous and the membership, especially we inaccurate, short hitters of the high-handicap variety are up in arms. That said, my wife and I played nine holes yesterday lunchtime and we didn't lose a single ball between us - a rare treat! It's been raining heavily again today....

Mark R (not P).

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2012, 12:24:35 PM »
Thanks Marks!
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Frank Pont

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Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2012, 12:47:03 PM »
Mark,

thanks for the post, great to be able to have a sense of how its looking without having been there (yet).

Its obvious;y a great site, I recognise some of the dune forms from time spent at Cruden Bay.

However, I have to repeat some of the other responses that it has the Birkdale flat fairway feeling to it.

If I compare these pix to Barnbougle, Pacific Dunes and Ballybunion I'm not that this course wins.....

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2012, 01:00:40 PM »
If the look of this course was getting any older any faster Maury would have it booked on his next Progeria special.

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2012, 08:33:08 AM »
A few more photos from the Hawtree Centenary Celebrations at Trump International.  Mark's given us the view into the green on all holes, so here are a few looking back the way, so you can see a bit more of the green design and landscape setting.

Hole 1:


Hole 2:


Hole 3:


Hole 4:


Hole 7:


Hole 10:


Hole 13:

« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 08:35:15 AM by Robin_Hiseman »
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Michael Dugger

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Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2012, 11:23:18 AM »
The one shot holes on the front nine look the same to me.  Flat, partially obscured.

I like the look of the 3rd from behind (Robin's picture)

A drop shot like that would be exciting in the wind and add some additional variety.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2012, 12:18:03 PM »
Thanks for the pictures, Robin.

Tom Birkert

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Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2012, 02:06:28 PM »
Looks wonderful. Have to make time to get up there soon to see how it plays...

Niall C

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Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2012, 02:15:36 PM »
Mark

Well done and thank you for a fantastic tour. The course looks good. How good, its hard to say until I do a Mucci. Interested in one of your comments where you refer to a lot of the greens being raised. Do you think that maybe promotes a more aerial game rather than a running one ?

Also the hole at the end with all the bunkers does look a bit like Faldo's Chart Hills with all those bunkers. Perhaps over done ? Either way I don't have a problem with the revetted bunkering as others do. Give it a couple of years and a bit of degrading and it will look as good as........well, some old bunker thats been there forever.

Niall

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2012, 03:13:26 PM »
Niall,

I probably needed to be more precise about using the word raised. Yes, some are raised above the level of the preceding fairway, some are just a foot or two higher and some give the effect of being raised because of swales in front of the green. A few are at the end of a long climb, such as 10. The running approach is not precluded on every hole. When we were there it was wet and the greens were relatively slow. The running approach was rarely the best option. But we did have options, and with four of us playing the same shot from the same place in the Texas scramble format we frequently attempted four different ways of exercising a particular shot. I'm poor with a lob wedge and much prefer to chip with a 6- or 7-iron if I can and plenty of opportunities to do so presented themselves. Our 1-handicapper is a regular links player - La Moye - but he was a dab hand with the lob wedge and his greater skill always meant that he was going to be nearer the hole whatever club or route he took.

You have made me realise something else about the greens. Some are very exposed to the wind, others are cradled in the dunes and relatively sheltered. We had quite a stiff wind in our faces when we started, but as the round progressed (starting on the 6th) it became less of a factor until we stood on the very elevated 14th tee. Suddenly we were exposed to a wicked left-to-right wind which did most of us a lot of damage. Only our seaside 1-handicapper was able to find a straight and true drive. The wind must have died by the time we came to the 18th because we should have been playing right into the teeth of the prevailing winds.   

I take the point about the Chart Hills bunkers, and perhaps this theme has been used too frequently. They didn't seem to affect us on the 18th, coming up short of them in two and being able to clear them with our third shot (not me, of course, but our better players). They caused us to think on the 4th - not a criticism - and while our best player went for the green and came up short in one of the bunkers our other good player was able to lay up out to the left whence the chip was reasonably straightforward.

I should have pointed out that the local rules on the scorecard are printed in English English (ie not American spelling), whereas standard scratch is not mentioned, but Rating/Slope are quoted. Similarly Player and Marker are ignored but Attest and Scorer are employed.

Jason Topp

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Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2012, 04:50:55 PM »
Trump makes my stomache turn, but this course looks good.  The X factor will be how it plays in a strong wind. 

It will be interesting to see how opinions develop over time.

Bob Harrington

Re: Trump Scotland - photo tour
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2012, 11:52:55 PM »
Looks great,complements to all invoved with the construction