[Sam Morrow]

Sam,

I have played 4 of the courses on your list.  I played what was then called Ellington Golf Course in the late 70's when you had to go through the base to get to the course.  Go through Air Force security at the gate, and then dodge MP's ticketing everybody exceeding the 25 MPH speed limit.  They built a new entrance some time later.

When I played in high school, we played a tournament every year in Kingsville on a course where the chemical plant is just north of town.  Hard as a rock and hardly any grass.  But there must have been pipelines running under the course because every now and then you would come upon these hardened lava flow-looking pools where something had obviously come up out of the ground.  A drive landing on one of those would get a lot of extra yardage.l

Glad to see another Texan chime in, which 4 have you played and what's your bottom 10? Also tell me again where you live and I might be able to put yours together!

I live in the Valley.  I've played Pharoah's, Ellington/Pasadena, Bear Creek President's and (obvious by my logo) the A&M golf course.  I'm not as harsh on the A&M course.  It does have some of that back-and-forth routing you talk about but it also has a few good holes that run along Texas or George Bush and a couple of good par-3's.  I would rank Bryan Muni below it. 

My bottom 10, in no particular order.

1)  Riverview/Fort Brown Municipal in Brownsville.  We had a bullet go over us from Matamoros once, and a friend of mine was playing and witnessed a knife fight on the fifth green (and it wasn't golfers fighting).
2)  Bryan Muni - Poor conditions and internal OB.
3)  Lake Waco
4)  Okmulgee (OK) CC
5)  Dow Chemical Course, Kingsville (or whatever it was called) that I reference in my original post.
6)  I would agree with Ellington/Pasadena.
7)  Llano Grande, Mercedes, TX
  I would agree with Bear Creek President's.
9)  Can't remember the name but it was a short course located on S. Main St. south of the loop in Houston, not too far west of Astroworld.
10) Lakeridge CC in Lubbock has some terrible forced shots because of housing.

Bryan Muni is the only thing in Brazos Valley I haven't played. I know the big announcement was this week that they are going to redo A&M. I haven't played Lake Waco, is that the same course as Heather Run or something like that? I know the little course you're talking about on S. Main, it was next to a range. Haven't been over there in a few years but the range is still there.

Have you played Oso or Gabe Lozano? Both were considered on my top 10 but I love Oso so I couldn't do it. If we nominate worst golf cities in America can we through Corpus in the mix?

[Mickey Boland]

I had actually given some thought to putting Oso on the list.  Played high school tournaments there.

I played Lake Waco once so don't know if it's been renamed.  The one thing I do remember most is that it is the first place I bought a sleeve of Pro-V1's.  They had just come out and it was the first place I saw them.  That will tell you how long ago I played there.

[Sam Morrow]

I had actually given some thought to putting Oso on the list.  Played high school tournaments there.

I played Lake Waco once so don't know if it's been renamed.  The one thing I do remember most is that it is the first place I bought a sleeve of Pro-V1's.  They had just come out and it was the first place I saw them.  That will tell you how long ago I played there.

I'd put Lozano on the list first. I have a neat piece of Oso history, in 1945 there was a 4 ball match with Hogan/Snead/Nelson/Demaret, they had the scorecard hanging in the shop, I have a great replica of it.

[Mickey Boland]

I had actually given some thought to putting Oso on the list.  Played high school tournaments there.

I played Lake Waco once so don't know if it's been renamed.  The one thing I do remember most is that it is the first place I bought a sleeve of Pro-V1's.  They had just come out and it was the first place I saw them.  That will tell you how long ago I played there.

I'd put Lozano on the list first. I have a neat piece of Oso history, in 1945 there was a 4 ball match with Hogan/Snead/Nelson/Demaret, they had the scorecard hanging in the shop, I have a great replica of it.

Never played Lozano so can't comment on that.  And you're right, for a city that could have some good courses, Corpus Christi seems to be lacking.  Although Padre Island is pretty good, and I've heard good things about Newport Dunes just north of Corpus.

Glad to hear they're going to re-do the A&M course.  Is it contracted out or are they going to do it in-house, so to speak?  With great landscape design and agronomy programs there's no reason it shouldn't be a better facility.

[Sam Morrow]

I had actually given some thought to putting Oso on the list.  Played high school tournaments there.

I played Lake Waco once so don't know if it's been renamed.  The one thing I do remember most is that it is the first place I bought a sleeve of Pro-V1's.  They had just come out and it was the first place I saw them.  That will tell you how long ago I played there.

I'd put Lozano on the list first. I have a neat piece of Oso history, in 1945 there was a 4 ball match with Hogan/Snead/Nelson/Demaret, they had the scorecard hanging in the shop, I have a great replica of it.

Never played Lozano so can't comment on that.  And you're right, for a city that could have some good courses, Corpus Christi seems to be lacking.  Although Padre Island is pretty good, and I've heard good things about Newport Dunes just north of Corpus.

Glad to hear they're going to re-do the A&M course.  Is it contracted out or are they going to do it in-house, so to speak?  With great landscape design and agronomy programs there's no reason it shouldn't be a better facility.

We had a membership at Padre Isles so I played it on vacation, it's a fun course. I still haven't played Newport Dunes, actually planning on going down there in October. I don't know who is going to do the work at A&M, I heard a rumor that a member of GCA had drawn up some plans.

[mike_beene]

Sam,you have to be an SEC person to comment on the A and M course.Sorry but nobody in Big 12 country will be allowed an opinion.A few of my A and M friends still talk to me, but it is surface conversation strained by the divorce of our institutions.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,you have to be an SEC person to comment on the A and M course.Sorry but nobody in Big 12 country will be allowed an opinion.A few of my A and M friends still talk to me, but it is surface conversation strained by the divorce of our institutions.

Sorry, let me just say Dixie Chicken sucks and Aggie girls are fat and easy.

Are we okay now?

[Mickey Boland]

Sam,you have to be an SEC person to comment on the A and M course.Sorry but nobody in Big 12 country will be allowed an opinion.A few of my A and M friends still talk to me, but it is surface conversation strained by the divorce of our institutions.

Sorry, let me just say Dixie Chicken sucks and Aggie girls are fat and easy.

Are we okay now?

Whoa!  Seriously off-track now and makes me call into question your other opinions.

Back on track, do any of the SEC schools have good on-campus golf courses or school-owned courses?

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,you have to be an SEC person to comment on the A and M course.Sorry but nobody in Big 12 country will be allowed an opinion.A few of my A and M friends still talk to me, but it is surface conversation strained by the divorce of our institutions.

Sorry, let me just say Dixie Chicken sucks and Aggie girls are fat and easy.

Are we okay now?

Whoa!  Seriously off-track now and makes me call into question your other opinions.

Back on track, do any of the SEC schools have good on-campus golf courses or school-owned courses?

LSU has a campus course that I've not played, it's across the street from Tiger Stadium and kind of behind Alex Box, it doesn't look like much from the road but I could be wrong. The University Club is underwhelming, it's their version of Traditions. The practice facilities are awesome but the course leaves a lot to be desired. The front 9 might have the two worst par 5's ever on a decent course. I have not played anything else at any SEC schools.

What are your thoughts on Traditions? And Dixie Chicken and Northgate really is one of the most overrated places ever, sorry.

[mike_beene]

The RTG trail courses at Auburn are pretty good.Not sure if they treat it as the schools course,but worth a play if you are going to a game.

[Brian Colbert]

Brian...would like specifics as to why Newport National is an abomination?

2-3 holes where the easier play down the tee is to hit it into the wrong fairway and a 260 yard par-3 with no margin for error left or right... to start

[Doug Wright]

Surprised nobody mentioned Glenmoor CC when discussing Denver area courses. Here is my summary from a 2003 thread: 

"One course that could get blown up is Glenmoor CC here in Denver, a Perry Dye upscale housing course monstrosity that's unplayable for the majority of the members and unfun for the rest."

TPC Eagle Trace in Coral Springs, Florida also makes my list. I could say the same thing as above about that course except it doesn't have the same claustrophobic housing element.

[Matthew Petersen]

Surprised nobody mentioned Glenmoor CC when discussing Denver area courses. Here is my summary from a 2003 thread: 

"One course that could get blown up is Glenmoor CC here in Denver, a Perry Dye upscale housing course monstrosity that's unplayable for the majority of the members and unfun for the rest."

TPC Eagle Trace in Coral Springs, Florida also makes my list. I could say the same thing as above about that course except it doesn't have the same claustrophobic housing element.

I only played Glenmoor once but thought it could be a lot of fun as a true match play course. I thought most of the holes were fun, just really overly severe and definitely not a place where you'd want to play a lot of stroke play golf.

[Greg Tallman]

Surprised nobody mentioned Glenmoor CC when discussing Denver area courses. Here is my summary from a 2003 thread:  

"One course that could get blown up is Glenmoor CC here in Denver, a Perry Dye upscale housing course monstrosity that's unplayable for the majority of the members and unfun for the rest."

TPC Eagle Trace in Coral Springs, Florida also makes my list. I could say the same thing as above about that course except it doesn't have the same claustrophobic housing element.

Thanks for reminding me - Eagle Trace has issues but TPC Heron Bay down the road is near the top of the Bottom 10, truly horrible.

[Cliff Hamm]

Brian...would like specifics as to why Newport National is an abomination?

2-3 holes where the easier play down the tee is to hit it into the wrong fairway and a 260 yard par-3 with no margin for error left or right... to start

Brian...thanks for the response.  You certainly play a game with which I am not familiar.  The 16th plays 253 from the back tees and 212 from the gold tees.  It is 182 from the green tees.  It is an excellent par 3, but the green is too narrow for the length of the hole for my game.  The solution is an easy one as it is with any hole that is too  long for your game.  Move up!!!  I play the green tee on the 16th and perhaps you should play the gold

As to hitting the ball into another fairway.  That had never, ever entered my mind and I have played NN about 20 times.  But when a good drive is 220 or so I play a different game.  I suspect the holes you are referring to are 12 and 15.  Not a huge advantage if any I think, but I will take note the next time I play there.  Perhaps you would prefer they plant trees to guard against that strategy.

And that is why I think NN is among the best, if not the best, public in New England.  It offers options with wide fairways.  The fairways have tons of movement.  Greens have excellent contour and the green surrounds with chipping areas are a delight.  Conditions are excellent and it is typically firm.

I am a huge fan and others have also posted positively about NN.  I also believe that Drew Rogers, an associate of Mr. Hills did most of the design work.

You clearly play superb golf courses when NN is one of the worst you have seen.  

[Jason Thurman]

Brian...thanks for the response.  You certainly play a game with which I am not familiar.  The 16th plays 253 from the back tees and 212 from the gold tees.  It is 182 from the green tees.  It is an excellent par 3, but the green is too narrow for the length of the hole for my game.  The solution is an easy one as it is with any hole that is too  long for your game.  Move up!!!  I play the green tee on the 16th and perhaps you should play the gold

Cliff, is the onus really on the player to change tees mid-round when a single hole is just too severe? If a player has the game to play the back tees, but a course has a single egregiously unplayable hole from the tips, is that really not poor design? I haven't played Newport National, but I have played a Hills course with a 208 yard island par 3 and a green about half the size of the 17th at Sawgrass. I can hit the shot 19 times out of 20 if I scoot up to the 100 yard tees, but the hole is still a load of crap as it's designed.

I design software workflows for doctors for a living. If I come up with a workflow that requires extensive workarounds, I'm getting fired even if the doctors can still hack their way around and figure out a way to handle it.

[Cliff Hamm]

Jason....Is it really poor design if the length of the hole is too long?  If it is an otherwise excellent hole from a different tee box, is it hence a poor hole from another tee box?  I think not.  It may be poor judgement on the part of the architect for choosing the wrong length, but I would not call that poor design.

 Would any of the great holes of golf be poor design if they were longer.   Thinking 7 at PB or 12 at ANGC.  If they played 200 yards it would be a joke.  Poor design? I think not.  Poor tee placement, absolutely.  Easily remediable, though.  Poor design cannot be easily remediated.

Frankly, to me the onus is on the course.  I don't believe they must put the tee exactly where the designer intended.  Hence NN imho should simply move the tees up.  Otherwise, if enjoyment is the purpose of the game it behooves the player to move up or live with it being a very difficult hole.

[Matthew Petersen]

Jason....Is it really poor design if the length of the hole is too long?  If it is an otherwise excellent hole from a different tee box, is it hence a poor hole from another tee box?  I think not.  It may be poor judgement on the part of the architect for choosing the wrong length, but I would not call that poor design.

 Would any of the great holes of golf be poor design if they were longer.   Thinking 7 at PB or 12 at ANGC.  If they played 200 yards it would be a joke.  Poor design? I think not.  Poor tee placement, absolutely.  Easily remediable, though.  Poor design cannot be easily remediated.

Frankly, to me the onus is on the course.  I don't believe they must put the tee exactly where the designer intended.  Hence NN imho should simply move the tees up.  Otherwise, if enjoyment is the purpose of the game it behooves the player to move up or live with it being a very difficult hole.

To suggest that tee placement isn't an integral part of golf course design seems pretty crazy to me. Sure, the course could just choose to ignore the back one/two/three tee boxes, but surely if that's necessary it's reflective that the hole as designed wasn't conceived very well.

[Brian Colbert]

Cliff,

The holes in question are 8 and 15. 8 becomes a 520 yard straightaway par-5 if you play it to the 7th fairway, right of that forest. Taller trees right of the tee would probably fix that pretty easily. 15 is interesting because if you play it down 14 fairway it is a wide open tee shot, and a way better angle to the green. Conversely, if you play 15 down the correct fairway, you have a tight drive to a fairway pinched by bunkers and a bad angle into a firm green.

As far as 16, this is not the first time I have seen an Arthur Hills course with a par-3 that was simply too long to be considered a good hole. #5 at Stonewall Orchard rings a bell. I played the course in competition and to their credit they did have the tee moved up, but it was almost ridiculous from there even, particularly because it played into a ~30 mph wind and I found myself hitting 3-wood or even driver. I found myself looking back at the championship tee and thinking I wouldn't have been able to reach the green! Now if I were playing the course in a casual round, there is absolutely no chance I would move up a tee box to play the hole.

I'll agree that there are some great holes at NN but unfortunately for me a couple holes are enough to make it a stand out as "overrated" in my mind.

[Cliff Hamm]

Brian..I don't want to hijack this thread into a NN discussion so just a quick response.  I did mean 15 and not 18 in my reply.  Perhaps this showcases how courses setup very differently from different tees and for different handicaps.  I'm not sure that 8 is a huge advantage going to 7 but you would no better than I.  Again, as for me I believe NN to be an absolutely excellent public course.

[Mark Provenzano]

I've played some bad golf courses over the years.  Some that stick out:  

3.  Old Orchard Golf Course, Arlington Heights, IL.  Too narrow, tree infested.  Plus they dye the ponds blue, like Ty-Dee-Bowl.  WTF?  

A little surprised to see this one--it's certainly nothing great, but a for quick round while killing a few hours before a flight at O'Hare, I felt like I got my $35 worth. I only had a couple of quibbles: It wasn't clear for a first-timer what was the distance to clear/lay-up the Ty-Dee bowl on 10, and the greens on the forced carry par threes wouldn't hold what seemed like well-struck shots (that would have held on the par 4/5 holes.)

[Jason Thurman]

Jason....Is it really poor design if the length of the hole is too long?  If it is an otherwise excellent hole from a different tee box, is it hence a poor hole from another tee box?  I think not.  It may be poor judgement on the part of the architect for choosing the wrong length, but I would not call that poor design.

 Would any of the great holes of golf be poor design if they were longer.   Thinking 7 at PB or 12 at ANGC.  If they played 200 yards it would be a joke.  Poor design? I think not.  Poor tee placement, absolutely.  Easily remediable, though.  Poor design cannot be easily remediated.

Frankly, to me the onus is on the course.  I don't believe they must put the tee exactly where the designer intended.  Hence NN imho should simply move the tees up.  Otherwise, if enjoyment is the purpose of the game it behooves the player to move up or live with it being a very difficult hole.

To suggest that tee placement isn't an integral part of golf course design seems pretty crazy to me. Sure, the course could just choose to ignore the back one/two/three tee boxes, but surely if that's necessary it's reflective that the hole as designed wasn't conceived very well.

I might have to revise my list. None of the courses I listed are actually bad design. They all just have the tees, greens, and fairways in the wrong spots.

[John McCarthy]

I just remembered the Salt Creek course in Elk Grove.  Does that thing even still exist?

As of last winter it did.  I go to the TopGolf that is nextdoor to drink beer and hit balls in the winter. 

Also, amen on 7 Bridges.  God I hate that course. 

[Bruce Katona]

I am, of course biased, but Bear Brook is so well thought of on this thread hole, descriptions were posted and several people were so interested they're actually going to play the course.

I can assure all it will live up to and exceed all of your demented expectations.

I actually forgot about the 700 yard par 6.  The island green following hole is rather well done.

[Michael George]

To all those in northeast Ohio, other than driving range courses that just allow you to smack a ball around, Blue Heron is the clear winner.  Just a horrendous design.  Used to be maintained well, but was a horrible golf course.

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