A Little Help for The Confidential Guide

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, I'm curious which courses you saw/played in the Dakotas during your trip last week.

Jim:

I played the Golf Club at Red Rock in Rapid City, SD -- designed by my old friend, Ron Farris, who posts here on occasion [and who is the project manager for my project in China right now].  After that, a friend and I went up and played the North Dakota Golf Challenge -- Bully Pulpit, The Links of North Dakota, and Hawktree.

[Tyler Kearns]

Tom,

How was the conditioning at Links of ND & Bully Pulpit? The latter experienced quite a bit of flood damage last year.

TK

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

I'll second Old Waverly.  It is a very fun course and more than a bit challenging.  They are very friendly to military types from nearby Columbus AFB and offer a tremendous deal for membership during transient 3 yr tours there.  I can arrange a member for you, and you might even get to add to your "coin" collection. 

Also, Dancing Rabbit is worthy of a mention in Mississippi.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I'm not sure how much Promontory is worth a look.  I've got the courses rated at a 6 and 5 on your scale. 

I haven't played SLCC, but I've seen it up close several times and hard to see it being much more than a 5 as well.

Sand Hollow could very well be the best Utah has to offer....

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

How was the conditioning at Links of ND & Bully Pulpit? The latter experienced quite a bit of flood damage last year.

TK

The conditioning at all three N.D. courses was reasonably good.  I was told about the flood damage at Bully Pulpit, but I really wouldn't have known from playing it ... except if they had more grass in the native rough areas.  The Links of N.D. was probably in the roughest shape of the three, but just fine for a $60 public golf course.  I wasn't expecting Augusta.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

I'm not sure how much Promontory is worth a look.  I've got the courses rated at a 6 and 5 on your scale. 

I haven't played SLCC, but I've seen it up close several times and hard to see it being much more than a 5 as well.

Sand Hollow could very well be the best Utah has to offer....

Kalen:

If there are any courses in any of these states that rate higher than a 6 on the Doak scale, I will be pleasantly surprised ... if not mildly shocked.  A 6 is pretty good stuff.

[Mike_Young]

Tom,

I'll second Old Waverly.  It is a very fun course and more than a bit challenging.  They are very friendly to military types from nearby Columbus AFB and offer a tremendous deal for membership during transient 3 yr tours there.  I can arrange a member for you, and you might even get to add to your "coin" collection. 

Also, Dancing Rabbit is worthy of a mention in Mississippi.

TD,
Stop and play Beau Pre in Natchez Miss....I built it for a good number and on pure sand...I don't know how good of shape it is but I would put it with some of the others mentioned if in good condition...
Ben, go play it...neat town also....

[Stephen Davis]

Tom,

I am very excited to see what you think of the Utah courses. My parents retired to St. George and I have played Sand Hollow many times and I have really enjoyed it every time. It has an especially fun and beautiful back nine. I have it as a 6 on my list and is the best course I have played in Utah. If you are in the area to play Sand Hollow, you may want to play Entrada. It is not as good as Sand Hollow, but definitely worth the play if you are in the area as it has some dramatic holes that are cut through black lava rock.  

[Steve Burrows]

If there are any courses in any of these states that rate higher than a 6 on the Doak scale, I will be pleasantly surprised ... if not mildly shocked.

I suspect you're right in this regard; any course that might be found in the upper tier(s) of your criteria probably wouldn't have gone under your radar during the past 30 years.  That said, if you're only expecting middle of the road golf courses, the TPC of Louisiana would be worth a look.

[George Pazin]

Doak rating rule of thumb:

True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)




Of all the bizarro things I read on here, people other than Tom posting Doak ratings might be consistently the weirdest. Or maybe I'm just the only person who can't read Tom's mind.

[Michael George]

Tom:

It would help me if I know how you approached the first Confidential Guide. 

If you can send me a hardcover copy of the first Confidential Guide, I am sure that I can provide some insightful ideas for courses in these states  .

I really have to get that library copy back ... it has been several years overdue now (just kidding JK!).

[Dan Kelly]

Of all the bizarro things I read on here, people other than Tom posting Doak ratings might be consistently the weirdest.

Doak 8.

[Stephen Davis]

George,

I have to expect that you are referring to my previous statement that Sand Hollow was a 6  on my list. Notice that I did not state that it was a Doak 6. I don't think anybody is trying to read Tom's mind (at least I am not). I don't think Tom Doak invented the 0-10 rating system, but he has given a good explanation of his own system. If many of us choose to adapt aspects we like about his system and apply our own take on it, then that is our prerogative. I can guarantee that my system is more lenient than Tom's because the repertoire of great courses I have played pails in comparison to his.

[George Pazin]

George,

I have to expect that you are referring to my previous statement that Sand Hollow was a 6  on my list. Notice that I did not state that it was a Doak 6. I don't think anybody is trying to read Tom's mind (at least I am not). I don't think Tom Doak invented the 0-10 rating system, but he has given a good explanation of his own system. If many of us choose to adapt aspects we like about his system and apply our own take on it, then that is our prerogative. I can guarantee that my system is more lenient than Tom's because the repertoire of great courses I have played pails in comparison to his.

You might have to believe that, but you would be wrong. Actually, my post was mostly the result of my good friend Kalen declaring Doak #s for the Utah courses, coupled with my 12 years on here, reading #s others post, then seeing what Tom has to say.

There's just something weird to me about someone throwing out a number that they believe someone else would give, when they do not have the same experiences of that person.

Having said that, Dan's post is hilarious, to me at least, which is not at all surprising.

[Jim Franklin]

Arkansas
Alotian Club

I've heard that The Alotian Club asks visitors to sign something saying they will not rate the golf course.  If so, that would kind of defeat the purpose of a visit ... but they will definitely get a "mention" in The Confidential Guide if that's really their policy.

I didn't sign one.

[Jim Franklin]

Will the updated Guide include commentary on your designs as well?

[Mark Saltzman]

Doak rating rule of thumb:

True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)

George, yes it certainly is unusual that others post Doak ratings (not that I don't do it).  At the end of the day, the Doak scale gives a definition of a score from 0-10.  That actual words Tom used to define the ratings means less to me than the courses that were assigned each number.

Using only courses I've seen from The Confidential Guide...

10 - Shinnecock; Crystal Downs; Muirfield = top-25 world

9 - Prairie Dunes; The Golf Club; Sand Hills = top-25 US / top-50 world

8 - Southern Hills; St George's; Lahinch = top 50 US / top-100 world

7 - Hamilton; Pasatiempo; World Woods; Franklin Hills = top 100 US

6 - Canterbury; Oak Tree National; Crag Burn = Top 100 Modern or Classic / Candidates for top 100 US

5 - Spanish Bay / East Lake / Royal Aberdeen = Top 200 Modern or Classic

Anything 4 or below would likely only be found on a best-in-state list (US courses only).

I am sure this is not how Tom sees his rankings, but it's basically how I convert Doak scores.

On that note, Shooting Star is top-25 modern, and for me is comfortably among the best 100 courses in the United States = 7

I think Promontory (Dye) is Top 100 modern = 6

Salt Lake CC is currently Top 200 Classic = 5  

Glenwild is Top 200 modern = 5

I think Victory Ranch could be Top 200 Modern = 5

[Stephen Davis]

George,

I have to expect that you are referring to my previous statement that Sand Hollow was a 6  on my list. Notice that I did not state that it was a Doak 6. I don't think anybody is trying to read Tom's mind (at least I am not). I don't think Tom Doak invented the 0-10 rating system, but he has given a good explanation of his own system. If many of us choose to adapt aspects we like about his system and apply our own take on it, then that is our prerogative. I can guarantee that my system is more lenient than Tom's because the repertoire of great courses I have played pails in comparison to his.

You might have to believe that, but you would be wrong. Actually, my post was mostly the result of my good friend Kalen declaring Doak #s for the Utah courses, coupled with my 12 years on here, reading #s others post, then seeing what Tom has to say.

There's just something weird to me about someone throwing out a number that they believe someone else would give, when they do not have the same experiences of that person.

Having said that, Dan's post is hilarious, to me at least, which is not at all surprising.

George,

Thanks for the clarification and I agree that Dan's post was well timed and well delivered! I agree that it is very hard to determine what someone else would score a course, especially someone who has played most of the great courses in the world.

[Kalen Braley]

George,

I'm not sure why others' proclamations make you blush. 

I've explained several times, just like others have, that the numbers we give them are based on the descriptions as found on the Doak Scale itself:

http://www.linksmagazine.com/best_of_golf/the-doak-scale/

Whether Tom, you, or anyone else on this site agrees or disagree with my assessments doesn't matter.  Its how I personally align them based on where I think it fits best.  It is interesting to note that of all the Doak courses Tom has rated, and that I've personally played, my ranking never deviates more than 1 point away.

[Dan_Callahan]

In NH, the interesting courses that would be at the top of my list are Hanover CC (cool history, some neat terrain, very fun) and Mt. Washington, which is one of my favorite courses in NH. If you visit Hanover, Lake Sunapee is nearby and might be worth checking out. I was also pleasantly surprised by Baker Hill, which was unlike any other Rees Jones course I have played. 

[Bill_McBride]

Doak rating rule of thumb:

True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)




Of all the bizarro things I read on here, people other than Tom posting Doak ratings might be consistently the weirdest. Or maybe I'm just the only person who can't read Tom's mind.

George, those "Doak'' ratings by anyone other than Tom Doak should really be called "Dork" ratings.

[Jim Colton]

Arkansas
Alotian Club

I've heard that The Alotian Club asks visitors to sign something saying they will not rate the golf course.  If so, that would kind of defeat the purpose of a visit ... but they will definitely get a "mention" in The Confidential Guide if that's really their policy.

Interesting. Then there are at least 45 offenders and/or members that helped the club secure its #14 ranking in Golf Digest.

Howard, maybe they took that stance after they got the rating they were looking for. Best golf course built since Sand Hills is not a bad title to have! Should be good to go for 8 years.

[Tom_Doak]

Doak rating rule of thumb:

True Doak # = (Any individual's Doak #) - (1, 2 or 3, depending on the rater)

Of all the bizarro things I read on here, people other than Tom posting Doak ratings might be consistently the weirdest. Or maybe I'm just the only person who can't read Tom's mind.

George:

I think your formula is about right.  I don't mind people trying to use my scale, but it's hard for them to do so without it sounding like it's my rating and not theirs ... and that's the part that's sometimes bothersome.  In fact, one reason to update the book is to provide my own ratings for some more courses, so that others will stop posting inflated ratings.

[George_Williams]

In NH, check out Lake Winnipesaukee Golf Club near Wolfeboro.  Clive Clark design I believe...

[Tom_Doak]

I was also pleasantly surprised by Baker Hill, which was unlike any other Rees Jones course I have played. 

Dan:

That quote deserves a bit more explanation.