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Joe Bausch

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Recently I was fortunate to play Phoenixville CC (Phoenixville, PA).  I was joined by Dan Hermann Mike Cirba.   ;)

A big shout out must go to the head pro at PCC, Matt Dever, and his assistant Tim Feroe.  We were treated like long time members.

Much is known about the early history of P'ville, a club that organized in 1915 (the Phoenixville Golf Club the forerunner at a nearby site):

http://www.phoenixvillecc.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=292779&ssid=173495&vnf=1

Many feel Hugh Wilson is the architect, and that very well could be true.  I've been looking for concrete evidence of this claim, but am still looking... but I hope to have more soon on this aspect so I ask all that reply to this thread to 'stay in your lane' and keep this discussion about the course and what you see in the photos and not take this thread down some well traveled, very bumpy, road.   :)

The course finally got all 9 holes open for play in 1920 (aside:  President Harding played P'ville in 1921 on a visit to Senator Knox in nearby Valley Forge; Warren shot a 53, for those keeping score at home). 

Together with Mark McKeever (a former member at the club) and Mike Cirba, we've been trying to piece together the original routing.  We say this b/c I have an article from 1921 that describes a big 4 ball match there and with the info provided by Frank McCracken of the Public Ledger, the course then is not quite the same as it is currently.  More on that later.

Here is the current routing of the course from an October, 2011 Google Earth aerial (pink are par 4's, green par 5's, and yellow par 3's):



There are plenty of challenges at P'ville, the biggest being navigating the greens.  If you play the back tees, it tops out at 2832 yards.  From the white tees at 2740.  On the card you play the white the front, the blues the back (frequently the blue tees are slightly different angles too) for a total of 5572 yards with par of 70.  You might be surprised to know it rates at 69.4/129.

#1.  You tee off right in front of the pro shop across a water filled ravine on a slight dogleg right par 4 (350 yards) that plays much more uphill that it appears.



A good drive leaves a short iron in to a wonderful greensite:



The approach shot plays much more uphill than we thought and we both came up short.

In this pic from short and right of the green, note how you see only about the top half of some very mature trees over the green.  It is pretty steep back there and hence great care is needed on distance control for the approach.



This from short and left of the green:



I should have taken a pic from the 2nd tee back to the first green to show that over the green is dead.

#2.  Drop-shot par 3 (146 yards).  Some might say this looks familiar!



I don't know the elevation change, but it is significant (guessing maybe 80 feet).

From short and right of the green:



From long and left:



From long and right:



That green is very much sloped from right to left and that pin in particular was devilish.  Mike was on the front of the green and his putt probably broke at least 10'.

#3.  Dogleg left par 4 (342 yards), where the drive is blind to a fw that cants to the right.



It must be very hard to keep a ball in this fw, unless you hit a right to left shot into the slope.

If you don't hit your drive far enough, say still 150y in, you can't see the flag but you do have a directional flag:



From a bit closer in you can begin to see the flagstick:



You can pretty easily bounce one onto the green as it runs downhill pretty good, but does slope heavily to the right:





In those two pics above you can see the tee for the dogleg left par 4 just behind the green to the left.

A view from the back edge of the green:



Three more holes tomorrow.   8)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 04:24:46 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark McKeever

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2012, 01:53:47 PM »
Thanks for starting the thread on Phoenixville Joe, its a neat little golf course and I enjoyed my time being a member there. (Work relocation to Houston forced me to drop it after graduating from Villanova)  

The first hole is a wonderful starter and you really need to be feeling good early on to fire at that back flag.  I have hit a bunch of shots maybe a yard or two long that end up leaving a full lob wedge up the hill from really shaggy rough.  Also note that there is a pretty good amount of slop in the front of the green making putts from above the hole scary.  Most people miss short and just chip/putt to the hole, and move on to hole 2.

Hole 2 is interesting because its much easier to get up and down from the valley/bunkers to the right than the left fringe.  The slope is so severe its impossible to hold the green if you miss left.

Hole 3 is a difficult tee shot but if navigated correctly is a pretty straight forward hole.  You definitely need to hit a draw off the tee or else you are forced to lay back a little bit.  I like this green a lot, but wonder if it was much bigger in the earlier years.  There used to be a very intimidating dog in the property to the right of the green.  Made for some nervous chips with him barking right behind you.  

Mark

PS, how is the original routing picture coming?  I think we have it correct..
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 02:10:35 PM »
Joe, et al.,

Did the 8th tee box once service the 4th green?

Good hunting. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 02:13:14 PM »
The first time I played Phoenixville #2, I thought I was at Merion West.  That hole is a doppelganger for Merion West #5!

By the way, when I played, they had an antique ball washer - it was really cool - had a bucket of water with something (I think) to make a sand tee.  IIRC, it was on the 5th tee.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2012, 02:13:40 PM »
Joe, et al.,

Did the 8th tee box once service the 4th green?

Good hunting. 

Very good Jim... that is exactly what we think!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark McKeever

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2012, 02:15:39 PM »
Joe, et al.,

Did the 8th tee box once service the 4th green?

Good hunting. 

Ding Ding Ding!  When I played out there, I would always think how it would be cool to play from 8 tee to 4 green.  Looking at the old aerials, we can see that used to be the case!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Mark McKeever

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2012, 02:18:06 PM »
If you look directly above the two bunkers to the left of 3 green you can see an old tee that was used as a back tee of hole 4 while I was out there.  I dont know if they still mow it....looks like they dont.

 (this could be the original 8 tee)  :)

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 02:30:06 PM »
Joe,

The area looks to be well kept up. Short game area today?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mark McKeever

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 02:31:44 PM »
Its a short driving range.  You can't hit it more than 150 yards or so without hitting into 8 tee.  If the hole were in play as number 1 today, it would be drivable I think...especially with the last 70 yards of so being downhill.

Mark
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 02:33:19 PM by Mark McKeever »
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 02:43:58 PM »
Looks really cool.  I'm interested to see PCC, as well as Merchantville CC... another Golden Age 9-holer in the GAP district.  If anyone has played the two, how do they compare? 

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 02:49:46 PM »
Looks like a fun place.

Not sure how I feel about the large flagstick/aiming point on #3. When you have trees back there that can serve as a similar aiming point, the tall flag seems kind of unnecessary, and it's sure not as elegant as something like an aiming rock or the bell tower at NGLA.

Michael Blake

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 02:58:14 PM »
Looks like a long walk from 1st green to 2nd tee.  Is it?

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 03:08:18 PM »
Looks like a long walk from 1st green to 2nd tee.  Is it?

Little bit of a hike, maybe a touch over 100 yards.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 04:13:53 PM »
If I was guessing at an old routing/configuration for this course it would be:

               present day 8th tee to 4th-   old  #1
                                                 5-     "    #2
                                                 6-     "    #3
                                                 7-     "    #4
                                                 8-     "    #5
                                                 2-     "    #6
                                                 3-     "    #7 - w/a green about  135 yds. ahead of the one in the photo, making it a 450 yd. par 5
                                                 1-     "    #8
                                                 9-     "    #9
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 04:16:41 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 05:26:33 PM »
Looks really cool.  I'm interested to see PCC, as well as Merchantville CC... another Golden Age 9-holer in the GAP district.  If anyone has played the two, how do they compare?  

Both are a blast Wayne.  PCC perhaps gets the edge on more interesting terrain. MCC with more yardage.  Both could use a chainsaw, maybe MCC you might wear out that saw sooner. MCC has a few holes with multiple greens making the place feel like 18 holes.  Both in great condition.

Edit:  and PCC has consecutive par 3's at 6 and 7, while MCC starts with back to back par 5's!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 09:47:55 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark McKeever

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2012, 11:18:20 AM »
The natives are getting restless Joe...Lets see more!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

DMoriarty

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2012, 12:42:08 PM »

Ding Ding Ding!  When I played out there, I would always think how it would be cool to play from 8 tee to 4 green.  Looking at the old aerials, we can see that used to be the case!

Mark

Any chance someone will post the old aerials?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2012, 12:56:35 PM »
#4.  Hard dogleg-right par 4 (305 yards).  This is a rather indifferent hole for me.

You must hit through a narrow shoot of trees, needing about 200 yards max, preferably a little cut shot:



From the tee the fw appears narrow, but it really isn't:



You cross the chasm on a foot bridge, the same one used for the first hole (in the pic to the right):



If you don't hit your tee shot far enough, you'll have some trees to contend with on the inside of the dogleg:



A real good tee shot leaves a short shot in:



The only up-close green pic I have is from just short and left:



Now on to my favorite hole on the course, the 5th.



The 'road' here being the entrance to the club, which you cannot see from the tee b/c of a little rise:



This grouping of bunkers left are easily reached, where my tee ball landed and I had little choice but to layup with a short iron.  A good drive just to the right of these bunkers can cross the road leaving 200ish in:



Because of challenging lighting, I don't have a good picture of a view after a good drive, which Mike had.  This pic is from behind the right fw bunker across the road, giving the general idea of the preciseness required for the shot into the two-tiered green, which is pretty tiny with deep bunkers right and left:



From 50 yards out:



From just short and right of the green (I tried to get some real good pics of this green, but the lighting and my point-and-shoot camera could not overcome the shadowing):



From just left of the green:



And two views from behind the green:





#6.  Par 3 (184 yards).

An early aerial suggests this might have had some Redan quality.

Tee view:



Two views from short of the green:





From over the green:



We don't have conclusive proof yet, but we think this hole may originally had the green way farther back and playing as a par 4.

The last three holes tomorrow.   :)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 04:27:24 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2012, 01:49:54 PM »
If I was guessing at an old routing/configuration for this course it would be:

               present day 8th tee to 4th-   old  #1
                                                 5-     "    #2
                                                 6-     "    #3
                                                 7-     "    #4
                                                 8-     "    #5
                                                 2-     "    #6
                                                 3-     "    #7 - w/a green about  135 yds. ahead of the one in the photo, making it a 450 yd. par 5
                                                 1-     "    #8
                                                 9-     "    #9

This is very much what we are thinking Jim.  Except in a newspaper article from 1920 the 7th hole is described as a par 4.  So, we think the green for the original 7th is the current 3rd green, and the tee for the old 8th being near the current 4th tee playing to the current 1st green.

I'll post a stick routing of what we think was the original routing later.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 3 holes up)
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2012, 01:51:34 PM »

Ding Ding Ding!  When I played out there, I would always think how it would be cool to play from 8 tee to 4 green.  Looking at the old aerials, we can see that used to be the case!

Mark

Any chance someone will post the old aerials?

Here is a 1937 aerial (courtesy of Penn Pilot):



Here is a 1957 aerial:

« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 04:27:53 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 6 holes now up)
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2012, 02:06:20 PM »
Here is my first pass at the routing originally at Phoenixville:

« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 04:28:07 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DMoriarty

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 6 holes now up)
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2012, 03:40:01 PM »
Thanks for posting the old aerials. 

I am curious as to why you think the the course went outside the existing property on your old third and fourth holes?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (first 6 holes now up)
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2012, 03:58:28 PM »
Thanks for posting the old aerials.  

I am curious as to why you think the the course went outside the existing property on your old third and fourth holes?

I have an article from 1920 that describes a prominent 4 ball match where the 6th and 7th holes are stated as being par 4's.  I have no other information from the article to add to that, but it is clear they were par 4's.  Could they have been calling these holes 2-shotters when one played a bit under 200 and the other a bit over 200?  I'm thinking not, so I'm trying to find a way to make the data work.  I'm not entirely confident in my original routing as that 1937 aerial shows what appears to be some fairly mature trees near where I think the original 3rd green and 4th tee would be located.  But some trees do grow pretty quickly.

Or maybe I have the original hole sequences messed up!  This 1920 article has the sequence of holes and pars as follows, with a little bit of other info for a couple of the holes:

1.  Par 4
2.  Par 5 (415 yards)
3.  Par 4
4.  Par 4
5.  Par 5
6.  Par 3 (described as being 'short')
7.  Par 4
8.  Par 4
9.  Par 4 (has a brook in play, assuming it is near the green as two players in the foursome hit into it).
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 04:00:21 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DMoriarty

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (a Hugh Wilson design?)
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2012, 08:56:03 PM »
I'll be surprised if the original course extended off the current property as you suggest.  Some trees do grow fast, but not generally in a big bunch across what used to be two fairways.   But you never know I guess. 

The article mentions the 2nd hole was only 415 yards, so my guess is that it ended about where you have the fairway bending, only possibly closer to the road.  That would give the third hole more room to stretch to around 260, and maybe give the 4th green a bit more room as well.   For what it is worth.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (a Hugh Wilson design?)
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2012, 09:06:07 PM »
I played PCC in a GAP match a few years ago.  Really great membership - very friendly and proud. 

We got to talking after the round, and they said that the club was founded with 18 holes in mind, but they didn't have the money.  Unfortunately, the land became desirable and PCC became landlocked with no room to grow - so she stayed at 9 holes.

For those of you outside Philly, Phoenixville is a town (borough, actually) that lives up to its name.  I moved here in 1993, and Phoenixville was a typical ex-steel town with the abandoned mill and a downtown full of empty storefronts.  Today, Phoenixville is THE place to be in these parts - lots of very cool dining, music, shops, and a really cool vibe.  I'm very proud of Phoenixville.

The golf club is a couple of miles outside town, kind of between Phoenixville and Valley Forge.