[MCirba]

Thanks, Phil...I really appreciate it.   I love digging through history, especially in a collegial, collaborative effort such as this one and am gratified that others here enjoy our findings.

[MCirba]

I apologize for the re-post of this somewhat fragmented telling of this story but I did want interested folks to have an opportunity to see our conclusions on the current thread page.
   

Just to recapsulate, we learned over the past few weeks that the golf course at Phoenixville had been designed prior to the actual formation of the "Phoenixville Country Club" in May of 1915, on 56 acres of land that had been optioned from Samuel Britton the month prior.   At the time, the group of golfers were known as the "Phoenixville Golf Club" (circa 1900) and were being vacated from leased land and looking to form a full-fledged Country Club.

The last meeting of the Phoenixville Golf Club took place on May 2nd, 1915, at which time that organization was disbanded with each of the members being named Charter members in the newly formed Country Club, whose formalization took place later in that meeting.

For some time we have been in possession of the Club Minutes of the "Phoenixville Country Club" which begin later in May 1915 but there is maddeningly no mention of Hugh Wilson or any other original architect.   Having recently learned the timeline described above, we began to suspect that the entry would have likely found in the Minutes of the "Phoenixville Golf Club", which we've been unable to locate to date.

Armed with this new information, we recalled that the source of Bill Kittleman's information was a long-time former member of Phoenixville named J. Fred Christman who had left the area a few years back.  We decided to see if this gentleman was able to recall anything related to the minutes.

Mr Christman joined Phoenixville Country Club in 1946 and was club champion at least 18 times.   He was also Club Secretary for a number of years and served as an officer in the Golf Association of Philadelphia.   He is presently 82 years old and moved to North Carolina a few years back to be near family members.   Our own Mark McKeever used to be a member at Phoenixville and was very friendly with Mr. Christman although hadn't spoken to him in a number of years.

Last week Mark reached out to Mr. Christman (who chastised Mark yet again for calling him "MR" Christman as he did in the days Mark was a member).   Mark happily learned that Mr. Christman was alive, well, and still had a great recollection of events.

Here from Mark is some of what Mr. Chrstman recounted during the phone call;

-Schuylkill Elementary School, down by the Phoenixville YMCA was the site of the Phoenixville Golf Club before they relocated to Valley Forge (which we independently verified)

-When he was secretary and read the early minutes Phoenixville Golf Club Minutes that mentioned Hugh Wilson, they were in "a very old three ring binder".   Fred was definitely surprised and unhappy to hear that the earliest minutes were not there...he even remembers they were upstairs. 

-Doug Moister was the club Champion in 1914, Christman played him early on in his career, said he was a wonderful player. (we've independently confirmed he was a founding member

-Don Weiland, who died last summer was the son of a Founding member of PCC.  His wife is still alive and may be able to help us.  More on Mr. Weiland at these links

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSRAytfrsGI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NziioPVTIC4

-He also asked if we have been in touch with "The Merion boys" about the connection   

His conclusion is that the minutes should have all been together and that someone must have taken them at some point and forgot to return them.  It was not him though, and he said the minutes all used to be together.  He suggested talking to Mr. Weiland's wife and seeing if Don may have stashed them away somewhere at their house.  Other than that, he says that basically anyone from that era has died except for him and he hopes we can find the missing piece of the puzzle.  He said not to give up, its out there somewhere.

He was happy to hear that 1915 minutes onward have been scanned in electronically and thanked Joe for those efforts.

As mentioned, at this point we feel very confident that Hugh Wilson was indeed the architect of Phoenixville based solely on the sharp recollections and sterling reputation of this beloved long-time standout in Philadelphia area golf, his role as Secretary of the Club, and his present mental acuity.   We will continue to search for the earliest minutes but at this point, only for their archival historical purposes, not to prove the case.   

We feel that's already been done, perhaps not to the satisfaction of some, but that's more than ok.

[DMoriarty]

Joe,  As a follow up on our previous conversation about the current 6th and 7th holes, is there any evidence of an old green beyond the current seventh green?   Eyeballing it, I can't tell if the current 7th matches up with the greensite of the old 4th, or if it was closer to the current 5th fairway.

_____________________________________

As for the additions to the thread of the past few days, I have to say I am a bit confused about how, based on what has been added to the thread, that anyone could be "virtually certain that Hugh Wilson was indeed the architect of the nine hole Phoenixville course."  But perhaps I've missed something crucial?  Here is what I have gleaned.

1.  There is a contemporaneous newspaper article which stated that as of May 1915, "The course has already been laid out by a professional."  

Mike would have us ignore the reference to a professional because the article appeared on the front page of the paper (as opposed to the sports section, I guess.) I am not so inclined, especially if the report is a detailed account of the goings-on at the club/meeting.  (Anyone care to post the actual article?) Mike also suggests the club members would have been too cheap to hire a professional to lay out the course. This, at best, is grasping at straws. Hiring a professional to quickly stake out a course would not necessarily be cost-prohibitive, even for the cheapest of club members.
 
2.  While Mr. Christman has some recollection that old club minutes "mentioned Hugh Wilson," the whereabouts of these minutes are presently unknown.  Surely this is not the basis for concluding that Wilson was the architect, is it?  Surely there must be more. What sort of mention?   What did the minutes say about Wilson's involvement? Do the minutes say Wilson was the actual designer?  Do the minutes mention the professional?  What exactly does Mr. Christman remember about these minutes? And how long has it been since he read them? Did he ever write down what the minutes said?

3. Mike claims the "proof" is based on "based solely on the sharp recollections and sterling reputation of this beloved long-time standout in Philadelphia area golf, his role as Secretary of the Club, and his present mental acuity."  With regard to Mr. Christman, I am not doubting any of these things.  But Mr. Christman is only 82 years old, so he wasn't there in 1915.  Not even close. He is going off of something he remembers reading in the minutes when he was secretary of the clubs.  Thus far, no one has said exactly what he remembers, other than that the minutes "mention" Hugh Wilson.  Surely this does not answer the question, does it? Earlier in this thread there were a number of suggestions that Mr. Christman had proof that Wilson was the designer.  So what is the proof?
_____________________________________________

Just to be clear, I think it possible that Wilson was involved in the creation of the Phoenixville course. But this idea that he has been "proven" to be architect and that no further efforts to "prove the case" are necessary?  Well . . .  there must be something that has been left out of the proof, because so far it just doesn't follow.

Here is an alternate hypothesis, and one that may or may not be true, but is actually consistent with all of the information that has thus far been brought forward.  Maybe Phoenixville had a professional quickly stake out (or lay out) a rough golf course on their new land, as reported.  Maybe then the club consulted with Hugh Wilson regarding the layout, and about how to construct the course, grow grass, etc, and that was mentioned in the minutes, as Mr. Christman recalls.  

Not saying this is what happened, but at least this is consistent with all that has been brought forward thus far.  At least it doesn't require us to ignore the contemporaneous record or to exaggerate the case.

[MCirba]

Perhaps one thing I haven't made clear in my brief summation of events is that Mr. Christman had been telling folks locally for decades that the old Minutes of the club indicated that Hugh Wilson was the original architect of Phoenixville.  We had previously assumed that perhaps he had reviewed those minutes first-hand in his role as Club Secretary but didn't know for sure.   We simply knew that he was the primary source of information relied upon by Bill Kittleman and others and later recounted in Tom Doak's book.

Once we learned that he was the source, and armed with more contemporaneous information regarding the evolution of Golf Club to Country Club and the timing of the planning of the new golf course it confirmed our suspicions that the new course was already designed before the formation of the Country Club, (whose minutes we were in possession of) we located Mr. Christman and asked him for any memories of the original Golf Club minutes which he was happy to share with us.   All of Mr. Christman's other contentions are borne out by facts we can independently verify.

I doubt he'd ever thought he'd have to explain himself further and we won't do so.   If anyone wants to help us locate the "Very old 3-ring binder" that used to "be upstairs" and "should have all been together" that held the original minutes please let us know as we'd be happy for others to join us.

There are other avenues being explored such as the fact that first President J. Whitaker Thompson was also a member of Merion Cricket Club by the early 20s (we're uncertain the year he joined), but as mentioned, at this stage we're quite confident that we both understand the source of the rumored Wilson provenance as well as the facts and contentions that support it.

[DMoriarty]

Would someone please post the 1915 article indicating that a professional had already laid out the course?   Seems too important just to gloss over. 

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,  As a follow up on our previous conversation about the current 6th and 7th holes, is there any evidence of an old green beyond the current seventh green?   Eyeballing it, I can't tell if the current 7th matches up with the greensite of the old 4th, or if it was closer to the current 5th fairway.

The location of the current 7th green is pretty much at a high point.  It falls off decently until you are down in the 5th fairway.

I've never really looked to see if there could be any evidence of a green beyond the 7th, but will on my next visit.

And to be clear on my current position, I want some sort of written record of Wilson's involvement.  Am I confident he was involved in the design?  Yes. 

Am I certain at this time?  No, I'm not.

[Mark McKeever]

No way there was a green long of current 7.  He must be thinking of 6. 

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Joe. I see what you mean in the photos. It looked to me in the old aerials that the old green sat very close to the adjacent fairway so I was thinking it may have been further along, but I haven't actually done an overlay to check it out.  No matter.

As for the rest, your take on the matter seems more reasonable.

Any chance you, Mike, or anyone will post the 1915 article indicating that a professional had already laid out the course?

Thanks Again.

[MCirba]

My good friend Joe is a scientist and therefore has a much higher standard of proof than I do.

On the other hand, there are others who I'm certain even if we find the original Minutes that will insist on carbon dating and handwriting analysis.  

I do have to wonder however;  have we now set a new standard for golf course architectural credit where only the discovery and display of original club minutes is satisfactory?  I do recall certain folks warning about the frailties of contemporaneous news articles as well as the incompleteness and bias of internal Club Minutes depending on which argument best suited their purposes.

All of that said, my first post on this thread stated that we were now "virtually certain" about the Wilson lineage.  Perhaps that could be also described as "confident".

Later I mentioned that our ongoing search for the original Minutes was not meant to prove the case but to preserve them for historical purposes.

Myself, I no longer have doubts about what Mr Christman saw as to the original course architect being Hugh Wilson based on his sterling reputation, his lengthy stint as Club Secretary, his attention to detail, passion for the game, his club, and its history, and his sharp memory.  However, any one of one hundred former or current members or more may have walked with those archives so I'm dubious whether they'll be found.  I'm no longer dubious about their contents.

I also took a day off work and spent it in the Phoenixville historical archives two weeks ago going through microfiche of old newspapers.  My payments to copy articles were not onerous but I'm thinking that I'll just donate them to the club for anyone who wants to come and view their historical records.  Phoenixville is a lovely town to visit and the course is certainly worth seeing for anyone with a true historical interest.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,  if you want to pretend you've proven that Wilson was the architect, knock yourself out.

As for your refusal to post the article indicating otherwise, I can't say I'm surprised.  I guess "corroborative effort" only applies to those who accept your position.

[MCirba]

A bit more on the frugal nature of the club as relates to the possibility of hiring a "professional" to design the course...

I've previously quoted articles that mentioned that the members themselves did most of the work of clearing and construction during their free time.   When the club was first formed, a "sum not to exceed $100" was authorized for "putting into shape the proposed fair greens and putting greens on the Brittain farm."  

In actuality, the princely sum of $136.93 was spent for course construction and grow-in, but the board authorized the "excess expenditure".

As mentioned, there was no money for a ground crew to build or maintain the course so members volunteered to pick up stones, remove stumps, and do other maintenance work.

What would have been the going rate at that time (1915) to hire an architect like Alex Findlay (who practiced pretty extensively locally at that time) for a nine hole course?  

[Jim_Kennedy]

I also took a day off work and spent it in the Phoenixville historical archives two weeks ago going through microfiche of old newspapers.  My payments to copy articles were not onerous but I'm thinking that I'll just donate them to the club for anyone who wants to come and view their historical records.  Phoenixville is a lovely town to visit and the course is certainly worth seeing for anyone with a true historical interest.

I'll send you a 15 ball pack of Nitro golf balls if you post the articles. 

What harm could come from posting what you dug up? 

[MCirba]

Jim...you big spender you!    Are you sure you weren't an original member of Phoenixville? 

Since you asked so nicely I'll see what I can do.  Right now I just have them on paper printouts from microfiche.

[Joe Bausch]

Here's an interesting paragraph from the Nov 1916 minutes:

[Joe Bausch]

And according to this article from golf writer Frank McCracken of the Public Ledger, the course wasn't completed until spring of 1920:

[MCirba]

Joe,

The mention of Morris Talman, pro at Plymouth, is a great find.   He grew up caddying at Aronimink and was best friends with John McDermott.   He left Plymouth in 1918 for Whitemarsh Valley where he served for over 40 years.

The fact that you found it in the Minutes of the Phoenixville Country Club which started in May 1915 could also be the source of the mention that they got help from several members of the Plymouth Country Club who had experience in this line of work that's mentioned in the club's 75th anniversary booklet and quoted on their website.

I wonder if the work actually was done or if the Minutes indicate anything further in this regard?  Mr. McLure would be Norman R. McLure, one of the club's directors.   At the time, Samuel J. Reeves was head of the Green Committee so it may have been an offer, or suggestion, than any actual work, especially paid work.   It does sound a bit like Talman was trying to drum up business in this regard.

The mention of the course opening in 1920 is a curious one, and I suspect it closed for some period during WWI.   From the same 75th anniversary booklet it mentions that the course opened in late spring 1916 with a match against Plymouth CC, and I have an article that has the members playing the rough-hewn course in late June 1916.   It also mentions that by 1917 the club had 105 members and the course and tennis courts were pronounced "in good condition", assumiingly quoting the Minutes.
 

[Jim_Kennedy]

What's the time frame for any Wilson contribution, after Talman, before?

[MCirba]

Jim,

It would have been prior is our understanding.   The course was already routed prior to May 1915 when the Country Club was formalized.  That is why we are so eager to  find the "very old three ring binder" containing the "Golf Club" minutes that  Mr. Christman referred to where he saw the Hugh Wilson attribution.

Last night I sent Joe the related articles I found that you recently requested and I'm hoping he'll get a chance to post them here later today.

[Joe Bausch]

Last night I sent Joe the related articles I found that you recently requested and I'm hoping he'll get a chance to post them here later today.

Curiously, I'm going to be back out at Phoenixville today for some golf and looking around.

Here are those articles from Mike, and later today I'll get them all dated:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/Phoenixville_articles/

[Mark McKeever]

Dig deep Joe.  Maybe that binder is up in that second floor somewhere......

[MCirba]

I just spent my morning reading the Phoenixville "Country Club" minutes that begin on May 3, 1915 (thru early 1923) that begin;

"The organization of the Phoenixville Country Club followed the adjournment of a meeting of the Phoenixville Golf Club held in St. Peter's Parish Home."

"At an informal meeting of 13 members of the Golf Club held at the home of Sumner Gowen on April 4th, 1915, it had been decided to take an option on the Brittain Farm near Valley Forge and sufficient funds were contributed for this purchase by those present."

"At a special meeting of the Golf Club held at the Phoenix Club rooms on April 7th it was decided to take over (sp?) this option and to organize a country club known as the Phoenixville Country Club.  The meeting of the Golf Club held this evening at the Parish House was for the purpose of learning of the report of the Finance Commitee and the committee appointed to draw up a charter.   These reports being favorably received, the Golf Club meeting adjourned and the organization of the Country Club followed."

From an architectural standpoint, it seems uncertain whether the club ever took Morris Talman's (pro at Plymouth) offer of assistance that Joe mentioned earlier.   Certainly there was no formal authorization, which would have been required if he was to have been paid.

However, it is clear that "Mr Finlay" (later spelled Findlay, most assuredly Alex) of John Wanamakers Store met with the club in the spring of 1921 and "outlined his opinion as to how the present links could be changed so as to make a longer and more pleasurable course". Estimate of the work was $5,500.   The club agreed to sell bonds to finance this work as well as construction work in the clubhouse.

Part of the recommendation included an irrigation system to tees and greens.   Other changes proposed by Findlay that were approved included, "complete 5th green, enlarge 7th green, begin work on 9th fairway and green, do the rough work on new 7th green across the ravine and new 8th tee, put in bunkers and fill at 8th green."   The next month the Greens Committee was authorized to "enlarge #1 green, build and trap a new #4 green, and build a new 9th tee."

Findlay came back to inspect the work on May 21st.  Unfortunately, due to a hot summer the grass on the new greens didn't take and by late fall it was determined that nothing could be funded further.  

In 1922 it was reported that re-grassing of several greens had taken place, and later that year that the new 7th green (assuming it was across the ravine) had opened, but no such green still exists today (which is today's #3 hole).  

In early 1923 the club was seriously considering the question of whether to hire a full-time Superintendent..

It seems rather unlikely based on this reporting and the formal manner that Findlay is introduced in the minutes of 1921 that he was actually the original architect from back in spring of 1915.   

[Joe Bausch]

Dig deep Joe.  Maybe that binder is up in that second floor somewhere......

No sign of that binder on the 2nd floor.

[MCirba]

The plot thickens...

As mentioned, Joe Bausch went to Phoenixville yesterday to play and to search for the "very old 3-ring binder".   Alas, no luck there sadly.

Further, in discussions with the club he learned that they had contacted the wife of Mr. Weiland who passed last year and she didn't have it either.   We may have reached a dead end and will likely never know the whole story without finding the binder, or at least be able to prove the whole story to everyone's satisfaction.

I also mentioned yesterday that I spent the morning going through the Minutes we do have for Phoenixville Country Club, which begin on May 2nd, 1915 at the dissolution of the "Golf Club" and creation of the new "Country Club".   Also, as mentioned prior, the course had already been routed prior to that date on 56 acres of land the club had optioned.

One thing I learned over the past few days is that the actual growing in of the course was a multi-year process, interrupted by World War I.   That war in itself has been problematic for golf course researchers, and we've seen in various cases where a course was routed by an architect prior only to open after the war, in some cases with the architect no longer involved.   We've seen that in the case of Schuylkill and Ashbourne with Willie Park, for instance, where those courses were routed by Park in 1916 but didn't open until 1921 or so.   In the case of Phoenixville, although the course was open to members for play at least some of the year (in seemingly pretty rough condition from the sounds of it)  from probably 1917 on, it wasn't until 1920 when the club actually had their "coming out" party, so to speak, and invited two local pros to play an exhibition match against two top local amateurs, which I've covered in the articles Joe Bausch linked to above.   Even then, the club still didn't have an irrigation system, a pro, or a superintendent.

However, in going through the minutes again later yesterday, I spied something that may be relevant to the creation story.   As mentioned, the local papers on May 3, 1915 mentioned that the course had "already been laid out by a professional."   Given that the writing was more attune to a local community paper than any sports writer who understood golf nuance, I didn't take it at face value, especially given Mr. Christman's recollection of the Hugh Wilson attribution in the old "Golf Club" minutes which he just reconfirmed for us last week.   Here's the article;



Still, as I viewed the minutes the name sounded very familiar when I noted the last payment entry from the meeting of May 8th, 1915, as seen following;




Sure enough, some further digging confirmed my instincts and I reached out to Philadelphia PGA historian Pete Trenham to see what he knew about one James B. Hackney, one of four golf professional brothers who learned the game caddying at Carnoustie.  

Here's what I was able to determine;

James (Jimmy) Hackney was first employed at the original Philadelphia Country Club course as an Assistant Pro from about 1909-11, then moved to Bala Golf Club from 1911-13 (his brother William took over for him at Bala in March 1915), then to Aronimink from 1914-17, to North Hills from 1918-20, then Green Valley from 21-22 and finally Merchantville (NJ) 23-24, all serving as Head Professional.

It should be noted that J. Whitaker Thompson, a federal judge and first President of Phoenixville Country Club was also a member of Bala Golf Club in 1912, so he almost certainly would have known Hackney.   Thompson also later became a member of Merion Cricket Club, if only to confuse future researchers.     Seriously we're trying to establish the date he joined but know he was a member by 1922.

So, could the "Professional Services" that Hackney provided related to routing the golf course?   We don't know, but it seems possible giving the timing.   We have no record of Hackney ever involved with any design activities in the Philadelphia area, but that doesn't necessarily rule him out.

I've also started a thread here related to typical fees for golf pros designing courses at that time, trying to determine if the seemingly paltry amount of $17.80 was somewhat standard fare.   Evidently that amount translates to about $414 in 2015 terms, which might be a decent day's pay depending on what he did.  Even so, it seems more likely that a day's work routing a course might be some flat fee...what's with the .80 cents?

Or, could this have been for services provided to the former Phoenixville Golf Club during some of 1914?   Might he have provided the golfers at that club lessons, or equipment, balls, and such?   Perhaps this amount was simply to settle up any debt to him for services from the previous year?   Again, finding the binder of the Phoenixville Golf Club would be invaluable in determining the full story.




Could it be that both stories are possible?   Might these very well-connected rich guys have had a few folks up to view the proposed new property for its suitability as their future home?   Certainly second opinions would be valuable, I'd think...perhaps even a few proposed routings to consider from different individuals might be prudent.   It seems natural to consider.

I suspect that like most things around Philadelphia at that time, some degree of collaborative effort was involved, with a number of cooks over the broth, and it would seem to me that's the most likely scenario as I feel very confident that Mr. Christman's detailed recollections of Hugh Wilson's involvement are accurate, yet it's also clear that Wilson wasn't directly involved in the construction and grow-in phases, or at least the Minutes don't reflect his involvement.

In any case, it's a fascinating if somewhat frustrating story.   We're hopeful that old binder will show up somewhere, someday.

[MCirba]

A bit more of Mr. Hackney...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,

Lot of cooks in the Phoenixville kitchen, hope you find the 3-ring binder and the magic ingredient you're looking for. 

p.s. if you see the initials C.B.M. in the notebook please keep it to yourself. 

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