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Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (a Hugh Wilson design?)
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2012, 09:56:36 PM »
Really is a great revival story, now is the place to go.  Did you see what they did with the steel mill?  Google " the foundry phoenixville" great spot, cool little course too.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

Bryan Icenhower

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (a Hugh Wilson design?)
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2012, 10:33:34 PM »
Truly is an amazing story. I grew up in Audubon and there was nothing in Phoenixville. Fast forward years later, back home visiting the folks and some friends picked Phoenixville to meet, thought they had lost their minds. Boy was I wrong.

Mark McKeever

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (a Hugh Wilson design?)
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2012, 08:50:40 AM »
Not to stray off topic, but it really is neat to see the town becoming "cool" again.  I think it will be good for the club as well.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Joe Bausch

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Re: Phoenixville CC: a photo exploration (a Hugh Wilson design?)
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2012, 10:48:13 AM »
#7.  Uphill par 3 (214 yards).

The bunker left is greenside, the one right many yards short.



From short and right of the green:



The green is fairly big but has false sides:





#8.  Par 5 (446 yards).

Tee view, where a good drive carries the hill and really makes it a par 4.



A view back to the tees from where a typical drive to the bottom of the hill sits:



Approach shot view:



From just short of the nicely bunkered green:



From over the green:



#9.  Par 4 (371 yards).

A blind tee shot here but the line is fairly easy to guess.



From the beginning of the reasonable generous fairway, but the green is sitting way down below, not in view:



A tee shot of say 225 yards leaves a partial view of the green:



My best drive of the day went to the very edge, leaving a sw in with a clear view:



From just short of the green:



A view from up on the hill near the clubhouse:



That's all folks.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 04:30:07 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Dan Herrmann

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Thanks, Joe!

Mark McKeever

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Great tour Joe!  PCC is a neat place and I would probably still be a member there if I was in the area.  As you can see from the pictures, your short game naturally gets sharp when you play here all the time.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

DMoriarty

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Thanks for the photos Joe.  Looking at the uphill nature of the current 7th (original 4th) makes it a bit easier to see why they might have briefly called it a par 3, but still it seems a stretch.  The old aerials suggest a backstop around at least part of the 7th green.  Is there any sign of that still?   

Here is an earlier aerial circa 1928 . . . As you can see the original 2nd looks a bit shorter and straight, and the original 3rd looks to have been a bit longer but to the same green site.  While the green surrounds may have changed the original fourth was is about the same place.



I've read the bit on the club website, and while I see they call it a Hugh Wilson design, the website also indicates, "Layout of the course was accomplished by the Golf Committee with some help from members of the Plymouth Golf Club."

Can you explain a bit about why the course is considered by some to be a Hugh Wilson course?  Is it the similarity of the sixth hole to the short hole at Merion West, or is there something more?  (I recall reading some mention of Hugh Wilson involvement somewhere but I cannot remember if this was from in a contemporaneous account or some secondary source like Shackelford or something.)

Thanks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

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David, thanks for that 1928 aerial.  Very helpful.  Is that available on some website?

Your aerial sure makes my hypothesis of the original 3rd and 4th holes being longer (with the 3rd green moved) very unlikely.  Where do you think the original 3rd tee was located?  About where the current 5th green is now, so playing along the property line as a pretty straight but fairly short par 4?  Or could the tee have been off to the left of the current 7th green, so the hole would still be a short par 4 and maybe bending a little to the left?

I know that the Confidential Guide lists it as being a Wilson, but I think TD obtained that info from Bill Kittleman, the long time pro at Merion.  I think Kittleman may have been the consulting architect for PCC in the recent past.  I've not talked to Bill about this attribution, but someone I know is reaching out to him.  And I've heard that a long time member at PCC, apparently quite a good player in his day, has evidence that it is a Wilson.  I also am trying to track down this info.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mark McKeever

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David,

Good find on the aerial!  This makes sense now that 3 and 4 were shortish par 4's back in the day.  There is an older gentleman by the name of J. Fred Christman who supposedly has proof of Wilson's involvement.  While I was a member there I didnt really care about architecture a whole lot unfortunately so I never really picked his brain on it.  He was a heck of a player and has won the majority of the club championships since it opened.  When we played together, he mentioned that he had eagled every hole there more than once.  Pretty wild. 

I am going to try to get in touch with him and will relay the findings.

Cheers,
Mark
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 03:09:49 PM by Mark McKeever »
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

DMoriarty

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Joe,  

Judging from the fairway lines and what might have be a path I'd guess the third tee was very close to the original 2nd green so as to maximize what limited length they could get out of the hole.  In other words not right next to the right property line.  You speculated that the hole might have had redanish qualities, but looking at the photos and the old aerial I am wondering if it perhaps was supposed to play something like the 7th at Merion strategy-wise or perhaps even cape-ish where one had to hug the property line to leave the best angle for a short running shot.  Of course the rest of the terrain doesn't match the 7th at Merion at all but I am envisioning the tee location as requiring tee shot slightly toward the OB.  

I wonder if they might have tried to slip around the corner for the 4th tee, thus encroaching on on the 5th fairway but perhaps buying a few yards?   Is there any sign of rear backstop mounding behind the 4th green?  (This might have been a bit of habit for Wilson on short uphill par fours.)

As for the Doak reference, that might have been what I was recalling but I am not sure.  I'll let you know if I remember where else I might have seen it.

As for the aerial here it is . . .
http://www.philageohistory.org/rdic-images/view-image.cfm/PTS1928.PhilaMetroAerials.035

Lots of good stuff on that website, some of which I am sure you have seen elsewhere but some of which might be new to you.  For example, ever heard of the now defunct Frankford Country Club?
http://www.philageohistory.org/rdic-images/view-image.cfm/HSF%2ED2E15
http://www.philageohistory.org/rdic-images/view-image.cfm/HSF%2ED2E16
Pretty cool renderings of what look to have been two very simple courses.

Anyway the website is definitely worth exploring as it contains a 1930 aerial Philadelphia survey (Dallin) and the 1928 aerial survey of the larger area, neither as sharp as some of the other Dallin stuff, but helpful nonetheless. There are also some neat topo maps including a 1910 topo of Fairmont Park, and some plans for some of the public courses (Terminal Island and Walnut Creek, I think).  Also, you probably have seen it but here is a link to part of a 1938 topo of Cobbs Creek showing a number of tees, green sites, etc.  

Sorry, forgot the link: http://www.philageohistory.org/rdic-images/view-image.cfm/AS-15
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 04:32:09 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Very good info - Thanks :)

Ray Cross

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Thanks Joe....as usual you've done a great job with photos and research.
Regarding Fred Christman; Fred retired around 2000 from GAP and moved to NC to be around relatives. I don't have an email address but his phone # is 252-482-1433. I'm sure he would be happy to pass on some history abot PCC as he holds more records there than probably anybody at any other golf club.

Joe Bausch

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I know a little bit about Frankford, mostly from Finegan's book.  Those are very nice drawings that somebody saved after all these years!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

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This being the 100th Anniversary of Phoenixville Country Club, a few of us were spurred to dig deeper into understanding the history, architectural and otherwise, of the club.   As such, we reached out to the club, to the local historical society, to old newspapers, and to a specific older member.

While we do not yet have the evidence in hand, I'm really pleased to state that we're virtually certain that Hugh Wilson was indeed the architect of the nine hole Phoenixville course.

A bit of history first...

Phoenixville Country Club was the outgrowth of Phoenixville Golf Club, which was founded in 1900 by members of the Phoenixville Bridge Co, and the first President was Samuel Whitaker, a prominent state politician who lived in town.  There were about 40 members and they played on farmland leased from A.W. Kley, a well-known baker who had a shop on Bridge Street, the former course having been on land which is today the site of the Schuylkill Elementary School.

In early April 1915 it was reported that Kley wanted the club to vacate as he wished to utilize the land for real estate but it was also reported that "A Committee of the Club have therefore been looking for available location for some time and this morning they decided to purchase the farm of Samuel Britton..." who had given them an option on 56 acres.

Moving swiftly, it was determined to hold a meeting to generate interest (and membership) in solidifying this purchase as well as proposing the establishment of a "Country Club"  because "Almost every town the size of Phoenixville supports a country club and in a very short time it becomes an indispensable feature of the social life of the community." ..."A well managed country club with its attendant golf links and tennis courts, means not only healthy enjoyment to the many who play, but it would raise the tone of what is sometimes considered by those who do not know us, a dull manufacturing town."

At that final meeting of the "Phoenixville Golf Club" on 5/2/1915, it was announced that a committee composed of Federal Judge J. Whitaker Thompson and Samuel A. Whitaker had prepared a charter for the new Country Club which was read and accepted.   A Capitalization plan was presented and a Board structure were announced and it was determined that the club would be a dry one.  

The "Golf Club" then adjourned and proceeded with the organization of the "Country Club".   Hon. J. Whitaker Thompson was unanimously elected President and the following men were elected directors: - Samuel J. Reeves (who headed the Green Committee), Norman R. McLure, Joseph Byrne, Malcolm Farmer, Sumner Gowen, Clyde McCormack, Frank L. Moister, J. Clarence Parsons and Judge Thompson.  

The article reporting on the meeting continues; "It was decided by the Club to take up the option on the Brittain farm, obtained by the committee from the Golf Club, and to complete the purchase.   The course has already been laid out by a professional, and it is expected that it will be in fair condition to play on by next spring.   All of those present last evening signed the charter for the Phoenixville Country Club, thereby becoming charter members of the new organization."

I would not read too much into the mention of a "professional" as discrediting Hugh Wilson because the newspaper reports were in the general news section on the front page and it certainly could simply be understood as someone who was expert in that field like Wilson.   Furthermore, these guys were extremely frugal (re: cheap) and in reading the accounts it's difficult to imagine them paying someone for that service, especially in a town with a history of amateur architects.  It was also several years before the club hired either a club pro or a superintendent.  

The following year it was reported on 6/9/16 that "Brittain Farm becomes Golf Links" and states as follows; "The Greens Committee, with Samuel J. Reeves as chairman, have had all the interior fences removed, have cleared a large part of the farm of bushes, have cut down and blown out many trees and have sowed the fields with rye and grass seed.   Hundreds of tons of stone have been picked, many members of the Club spending their Saturday afternoons at this work.   Trees (sp) and greens have been graded out and sowed in grass."

A picnic was organized that month for the purposed of showing the members the progress.   On 6/27/16 it was reported that the picnic was held and "During the afternoon the members and guests wandered over the course which, at some points, affords a marvelous view up and down the Schuylkill Valley.   The Handicap Committee arranged a tournament for the golf-playing members and while the course is not yet in good condition, the match was much enjoyed by about thirty entrants."

More to follow...
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 08:34:48 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

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« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 04:31:43 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

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Joe,

I'd be remiss not to mention that this latest flurry of research has involved the collaborative work of you, Mark McKeever, Jeff Silverman, a lurker or two, and my obsessive/compulsive disorder.  The nice part is that this has been a case study on one researcher ' s work building on another's which is really how this all should work at its best.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Dan Herrmann

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A totally subjective comment here, so please take it at that level.  But as I was playing Phoenixville (and getting whipped during GAP matches by two great guys), I felt like I was at Merion West.   That par 3 drop shot sure seems similar to Merion West's sweet baby par 3 on the front 9.    

The place has a Wilsonian feel to me.

Did Flynn make an appearance too?  (I need to get to my other PC to read the Morrison/Lurker book and see what it says on the subject) :)

Jon Cavalier

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Looks like a really fun place to play. Nice photos, Joe. Can't believe I've never been - now plan on fixing that this year.
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Chris Mavros

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I have been a member of Phoenixville the last few years and it's a course I never tire of playing.  It certainly reminds me of other Wilson courses I have played in a few ways; the use of rolling terrain, simple yet effective bunkering and the value of repeat play.  The greens at the Fifth and Eighth are especially intriguing.  There are lots of challenging, visually intimidating and blind shots, which keeps things quite varied throughout the round. And with all the hills, it's certainly a work out walking the course. 

MCirba

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The first time I saw the mention of Hugh Wilson being associated with Phoenixville was from Tom Doak's "Confidential Guide" and it was a bit surprising.   At the time, I had never seen or played the course and wasn't aware of the supposed provenance.

One day a few years back I sent an email to Tom asking the source of that information.   He wrote back and if memory serves, told me the information came from former long-time Merion pro Bill Kittleman, who did some work on the course.  I never asked Kittleman directly but heard that his information came from a long-time Phoenixville member and mulitiple time club champion there.

A few years ago Joe Bausch, Mark McKeever and I were graciously greeted at the club for some golf and allowed to view the historical materials available in the clubhouse.   Not knowing much of the timing of the events I recounted in yesterday's post, we simply pretty much knew the club opened in 1915 and lo and behold, they provided us with Minutes of the Country Club that began in May 1915.   We opened excited only to be later disappointed when we saw not a mention of Hugh Wilson, nor any other course architect.   There was a mention of Alex Findlay coming by and making some recommendations in the early 20s, but alas, no word on the original course.

Joe digitized these minutes for the club and they were thrilled to have them for long-term archival purposes.   At that point we were probably more confused than ever.   We sort of understood that there had been some type of organization at Phoenixville prior to the Country Club but didn't know the direct timeline or understand that the course had already been laid out prior to the first entry in the "Country Club" Minutes.

One thing we did know is that the course was well routed on a tight acreage (56) which had a deep ravine and existing outbuilding and had needs for tennis and other functions associated with the Country Club purposes.   An early description read; The property chosen is endowed with more natural beauty than would be found at any of the finest and most expensive clubs in this part of the country.   The farm is on the crest of a knoll or plateau which spreads out just below the steep rise of the Valley Hills.   A ravine, like a sunken garden, divides this plateau, and through this runs a stream bordered by meadowland and orchard.   From the high level ground on which are located the buildings are is an unbroken view to the west as far as the Reading hills...To the east stretches the Schuylkill Valley to Norristown, with beautiful glimpses of the river in the foreground...The house is the typical old Colonial farmhouse of grey, since plastered, and with open fireplaces.   It is full of possibilities and the level shaded lawn in front also suggests the atmosphere and environment of a charming country home, which is indeed the final touch that is lacking in so many country club houses."

More to follow...

« Last Edit: March 28, 2015, 04:55:57 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

archie_struthers

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I sent this thread  one of my friends Gregg Gipp, who,played for years at Phoenixville before moving to,the Jersey shore (south ) . He loved reading all your work .

Having a little knowledge of Phoenixville , I surmise you met up with Don Weiland , a legendary figure in Philadelphia Amateur Golf , who was a fixture at the club. I don't think it was Freddy Christman , another famous Phoenixville golfer and a long time supporter and integral member of the GAP (Golf Association of Philadelphia hierarchy . They still run a tournament named in his honor for junior golfers, the Christman Cup.

Nice job again guys. Phoenixville may have been the greatest "homer " course in Philly.  Almost no one could beat the locals at home in inter club matches for years . Quirky and crazy all at once . Really interesting .

MCirba

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Glad you're enjoying this thread Archie, and Gregg as well!

I'll try to get to the "rest of the story" later today as time permits.   Thanks!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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I apologize for the fragmented telling of this story but it's been a busy time.  

Just to recapsulate, we learned over the past few weeks that the golf course at Phoenixville had been designed prior to the actual formation of the "Phoenixville Country Club" in May of 1915, on 56 acres of land that had been optioned from Samuel Britton the month prior.   At the time, the group of golfers were known as the "Phoenixville Golf Club" (circa 1900) and were being vacated from leased land and looking to form a full-fledged Country Club.

The last meeting of the Phoenixville Golf Club took place on May 2nd, 1915, at which time that organization was disbanded with each of the members being named Charter members in the newly formed Country Club, whose formalization took place later in that meeting.

For some time we have been in possession of the Club Minutes of the "Phoenixville Country Club" which begin later in May 1915 but there is maddeningly no mention of Hugh Wilson or any other original architect.   Having recently learned the timeline described above, we began to suspect that the entry would have likely found in the Minutes of the "Phoenixville Golf Club", which we've been unable to locate to date.

Armed with this new information, we recalled that the source of Bill Kittleman's information was a long-time former member of Phoenixville named J. Fred Christman who had left the area a few years back.  We decided to see if this gentleman was able to recall anything related to the minutes.

Mr Christman joined Phoenixville Country Club in 1946 and was club champion at least 18 times.   He was also Club Secretary for a number of years and served as an officer in the Golf Association of Philadelphia.   He is presently 82 years old and moved to North Carolina a few years back to be near family members.   Our own Mark McKeever used to be a member at Phoenixville and was very friendly with Mr. Christman although hadn't spoken to him in a number of years.

Last week Mark reached out to Mr. Christman (who chastised Mark yet again for calling him "MR" Christman as he did in the days Mark was a member).   Mark happily learned that Mr. Christman was alive, well, and still had a great recollection of events.

Here from Mark is some of what Mr. Chrstman recounted during the phone call;

-Schuylkill Elementary School, down by the Phoenixville YMCA was the site of the Phoenixville Golf Club before they relocated to Valley Forge (which we independently verified)

-When he was secretary and read the early minutes Phoenixville Golf Club Minutes that mentioned Hugh Wilson, they were in "a very old three ring binder".   Fred was definitely surprised and unhappy to hear that the earliest minutes were not there...he even remembers they were upstairs.  

-Doug Moister was the club Champion in 1914, Christman played him early on in his career, said he was a wonderful player. (we've independently confirmed he was a founding member

-Don Weiland, who died last summer was the son of a Founding member of PCC.  His wife is still alive and may be able to help us.  More on Mr. Weiland at these links

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSRAytfrsGI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NziioPVTIC4

-He also asked if we have been in touch with "The Merion boys" about the connection  

His conclusion is that the minutes should have all been together and that someone must have taken them at some point and forgot to return them.  It was not him though, and he said the minutes all used to be together.  He suggested talking to Mr. Weiland's wife and seeing if Don may have stashed them away somewhere at their house.  Other than that, he says that basically anyone from that era has died except for him and he hopes we can find the missing piece of the puzzle.  He said not to give up, its out there somewhere.

He was happy to hear that 1915 minutes onward have been scanned in electronically and thanked Joe for those efforts.


As mentioned, at this point we feel very confident that Hugh Wilson was indeed the architect of Phoenixville based solely on the sharp recollections and sterling reputation of this beloved long-time standout in Philadelphia area golf, his role as Secretary of the Club, and his present mental acuity.   We will continue to search for the earliest minutes but at this point, only for their archival historical purposes, not to prove the case.  

We feel that's already been done, perhaps not to the satisfaction of some, but that's more than ok.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 03:19:42 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Archie's mention of Gregg Gipp in relation to J. Fred Christman led me to this article.   Archie, probably not one of Gregg's fondest memories but a pretty good indication of what a terrific player Mr. Christman was.   http://articles.philly.com/1986-10-14/sports/26059954_1_club-titles-christman-mike-hausman
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Phil McDade

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I sent this thread  one of my friends Gregg Gipp, who,played for years at Phoenixville before moving to,the Jersey shore (south ) . He loved reading all your work .

Having a little knowledge of Phoenixville , I surmise you met up with Don Weiland , a legendary figure in Philadelphia Amateur Golf , who was a fixture at the club. I don't think it was Freddy Christman , another famous Phoenixville golfer and a long time supporter and integral member of the GAP (Golf Association of Philadelphia hierarchy . They still run a tournament named in his honor for junior golfers, the Christman Cup.

Nice job again guys. Phoenixville may have been the greatest "homer " course in Philly.  Almost no one could beat the locals at home in inter club matches for years . Quirky and crazy all at once . Really interesting .

Mike:

I just want to echo Archie here and say it's really neat to see such an in-depth look at an under-appreciated side of golf architecture (9-hole courses) and particularly glad to see you back here posting. Keep up the good work!

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