Golf holes with "no target" (Blind shots)

[PCCraig]

This past weekend while playing at my home course with the current Green Committee Chairman, we got to talking about the hill on the 6th hole which was discussed last week in a thread (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52713.0.html). He mentioned that the blind second shot is scheduled to be altered next year so that the pin on the green will be made visible on the second shot. When I told him I enjoyed the unique challenge of the blind second shot he asked me to "name great golf holes where you have no target or anything to aim at."

Here is the second shot in question:


Later in the round, we got to another blind shot, this time a downhill approach. When I asked if he would vote to take down this hill he told me he "would never take this hill down" and that he has an "entire skyline to aim at."

Here is the second blind shot in question:


What defines a "target"...meaning are there different levels of blind shots (of "blindness")? Is one shot more fair than the other because there is a skyline or something behind the green , or shot, that the player can aim at and give themselves an object to use for depth perception? Or is there no difference, if you can't see the pin (or green) it's blind all the same? What are other examples of great holes with "no target?"

[Dan Kelly]

This past weekend while playing at my home course with the current Green Committee Chairman, we got to talking about the hill on the 6th hole which was discussed last week in a thread (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52713.0.html). He mentioned that the blind second shot is scheduled to be altered next year so that the pin on the green will be made visible on the second shot. When I told him I enjoyed the unique challenge of the blind second shot he asked me to "name great golf holes where you have no target or anything to aim at."

Here is the second shot in question:

Pat --

Isn't the green halfway between those lines of trees? How much more guidance does someone need?

[PCCraig]

This past weekend while playing at my home course with the current Green Committee Chairman, we got to talking about the hill on the 6th hole which was discussed last week in a thread (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52713.0.html). He mentioned that the blind second shot is scheduled to be altered next year so that the pin on the green will be made visible on the second shot. When I told him I enjoyed the unique challenge of the blind second shot he asked me to "name great golf holes where you have no target or anything to aim at."

Here is the second shot in question:

Pat --

Isn't the green halfway between those lines of trees? How much more guidance does someone need?

Right. That photo is taken from probably 200 yards away from the green. The green is in between the trees but is actually a lot closer (the left side slightly behind) the tree on the left than it is to the trees on the right.

[Phil McDade]

Pat:

I'm up to the challenge (just not today!). I'll post some pics, if that's OK, of courses I've played with holes with varying degrees of blindness that I think are very good (I'll leave the judgement of "great" to others).

Yes -- I'd agree there are varying degrees of blindness. Some shots are more blind than others.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Of course, there are many great holes featuring blind shots. And, opinions on such holes are like so much in golf course architecture - subjective; which is why I fundamentally take issue when a blind hole has existed for many, many years then suddenly a Green chairman - who, in the grand scheme of things, is 'in power' for a short period of time - decides its in the best interest of the club/course that the hole be altered. 

[D_Malley]

PCraig

The poster child for these type of shots would be Merion.
There are several Holes with Blind second shots

#1 - for anyone who can not drive the ball over 220
#2
#4
#14

[Garland Bayley]

I suggest a bowling ball on a stick.

[Tyler Kearns]

Pat,

I've had the good fortune to play your course, and love the many quirks it offers and hope they keep it as is. As a private facility, blind shots like these are much more agreeable as the members have played the course hundreds of times and have figured out where to aim and how to play the hole. At a public or resort course where golfers may only be playing the course once, I would be more hesitant to include features of this nature.

Does it present a safety hazard? Is play slowed down?

TK

[Jason Topp]

I find both of those shots to be well defined by the background.  Perhaps the differing reactions are caused by the fact that one is downhill on a medium length hole and the other is uphill on a very long hole?

I struggle to think of great courses in the US that feature blind approached, except as a cost of being out of position.  There are tons of great links courses with blind shots but I suspect those examples would not be persuasive for your purposes. 

[Phil McDade]

I find both of those shots to be well defined by the background.  Perhaps the differing reactions are caused by the fact that one is downhill on a medium length hole and the other is uphill on a very long hole?

I struggle to think of great courses in the US that feature blind approached, except as a cost of being out of position.  There are tons of great links courses with blind shots but I suspect those examples would not be persuasive for your purposes. 

Jason:

Pebble Beach is usually considered one the better courses around, and it has a totally blind approach to the 6th green, I believe.

[Dan Kelly]

What does the Chairman aim at on No. 15?

Here's what I think, Pat: Town & Country stripped of its quirks is Town & Country stripped of its character. Because it's those quirks that give it its distinctive interest.

One of its most memorable quirks is that hill/wall on 6. If all the Chairman has in mind is a VERY tall flagpole, well, I can see that (pun intended). But if he wants to raze (lower) the hill ... I object!

As Tyler Kearns notes: How many times is a shot "blind"?

[David_Elvins]

When I told him I enjoyed the unique challenge of the blind second shot he asked me to "name great golf holes where you have no target or anything to aim at."

The first question I would ask in return would be "Should every hole on a golf course be great?"

The biggest mistake a lot of committees make is trying to improve "the weakest hole on the course".

Greatness is a poor benchmark.  

[Jud_T]

Seems like you'd only have to play the hole once to have a pretty good idea of an aiming point.  If he's still got his panties in a bunch just put up a tall pole behind the green or something.

[Sean_A]

Neither photo depicts an enticing blind shot.  Both look a bit tight with trees considering the blindness, but they also provide a very obvious target line. 

Ciao

[Dan Kelly]

Neither photo depicts an enticing blind shot.  Both look a bit tight with trees considering the blindness, but they also provide a very obvious target line. 

Ciao

They're not really tight.

The second picture is misleading, I think. You're hitting your second from a relatively flat fairway, over the crest of a steep hill (great sledding hill, open to the public), and shots fly or bound down the hill to the bottom, where the green sits. Maybe I've just driven it too well on that hole (emoticon omitted), but I don't recall ever feeling that the trees were at all in the way. If anything, that "skyline" target between the trees is too wide for the occasional visitor. I've walked forward to the summit every time I've played the hole (five or six times, I suppose), to get a look at the green and the hole location, and thus to achieve a better target line than "downtown Minneapolis."

Rumor has it that this is John Mayhugh's favorite hole anywhere. Cf. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49156.0.html.

[Dale Jackson]

Tee shot #8 Pebble Beach

[Tim Johnson]

If I was involved in this conversation as it took place, I would have two concerns right off the bat. I would first say that I dont know this gentleman and mean no ill will towards him or his beliefs in golf. To each his own

1) He asks "what other great holes have blind shots?"......the list is long and it would lead me to believe this gentleman may not have a wide knowledge of different styles of golf holes.

2) In asking that question, he is also stating we must be like the other golf courses. My belief is you make your course suit the land you are using, not change it to fit what a golf hole is supposed to look like. If golf courses were carbon copies, we wouldnt take trips to far away places to try new courses.

Jeff M may have hit it on the head, countless time I have heard stories of the people in power wanting to put their fingerprints on their courses. Power is good for electricity but as our politicians have proven, may not be so good when given to an individual.

[Matthew Petersen]

I find both of those shots to be well defined by the background.  Perhaps the differing reactions are caused by the fact that one is downhill on a medium length hole and the other is uphill on a very long hole?

I struggle to think of great courses in the US that feature blind approached, except as a cost of being out of position.  There are tons of great links courses with blind shots but I suspect those examples would not be persuasive for your purposes. 

Jason:

Pebble Beach is usually considered one the better courses around, and it has a totally blind approach to the 6th green, I believe.

Unless you get up very close to the hill, the lone tree out behind the green serves as a decent aiming point.

And Dale mentioned the tee shot on #8 at Pebble, but while the landing area is blind there is both an aiming rock and a big house on the hill that are perfectly good aiming aids.

Both shots are blind, but there is still a "target".

[Howard Riefs]

Seems like you'd only have to play the hole once to have a pretty good idea of an aiming point.  If he's still got his panties in a bunch just put up a tall pole behind the green or something.

There's exactly what's behind #12 at Flossmoor: A pole with a bullseye.

Borrowing Greg Ohlendorf's course profile (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/flossmoor-country-club/) to describe the hole:

"This hole is challenging due to the hill that begins 257 yards from the back tee and elevates 27 feet from Butterfield Creek. A blind second shot into this green must be carefully played as the green falls away from front to back."

Without the target, you're staring at a wall of trees. With it, at least you know where the center of the green is located. It's not picturesque but does the trick for the members, I gather.  

I "circled" the target in the photo...  

[Mike Hendren]

IMHO there is a distinction between holes where the second shot is blind and those where one is required to immediately confront a steep upslope dead on.  The latter can appear cumbersome ("unfair" to the whiner) and include such fairway shots as the second to the 5th at Cascades.  Often such holes are routed up and over so that a big hitter can carry the rise (the tee shot at Beverly's 7th, the tee shot at Cascades'  9th and the tee shot at Dismal River's 2nd are examples off the top of my head).  The short hitter or player slightly missing his tee shot suffers double jeopardy by being denied roll-out (anti-turbo boost)  and having to truncate the next shot to insure clearance of the hillside with a more lofted club.  Meanwhile his big hitting opponent is likely staring straight down the pin from shorter distance.  The 2nd at Dismal ate my lunch in this very manner and I got what I deserved.  

As a low ball digger I detest such demands but firmly believe the tiger should be rewarded for his length.  The shots are awkward, but the architecture is often brilliant.

Mike    

[Tom ORourke]

Llanerch is a very nice course just outside of Philadelphia. They had a short, blind, par 4 with the bulls eye pole behind the green. I believe Jay Siegel may have aced the hole. Killarney has a hole I played many years ago with a painted white rock in the fairway as an aiming point for the line over the hill on a dogleg. Blind shots are okay if you can come up with some kind of feature to show the way a little. And Pete Dye built a blind hole at Old Marsh by putting a giant mound in front of a green. No mistaking the intent there. Tobacco Road has blind shots but has the chimneys in the distance for lines. Give me a little quirk. And if there are no natural or man made lines, fine. I think it is okay to challenge a player to walk up a bit, check out the green, and figure it out. That is legitimate. Tee shots that require a forecaddy to tell you that it goes over the hill and makes a hard left, not so good. The rest is fine with me.

[jeffwarne]

There's always a target.
a tree, a blemish on the fairway, etc

Goat Hill has 7 out of 9 blind holes and I can tell you where every shot hit will finish, even with the spines in  fairways.
Usually pick out a tree or V in the trees for first timers, but getting them to grasp that it's not just a certain distance that they need but a particular trajectory, line, and distance.(can't jst say hit it 110 yards)
have to "see"(or experience) it to grasp it

[Adam Clayman]

Cypress point came to mind as an example of great that has blindness. The 1st tee shot, the 8th tee shot and every shot, when it's foggy.

[Tim Martin]

Pat- Someone needs to detain the Greens Chairman until his term expires. How long do you think he could survive out in the wilderness? I hope you reeled off a list of great holes to catch him flat footed.

[PCCraig]

Seems like you'd only have to play the hole once to have a pretty good idea of an aiming point.  If he's still got his panties in a bunch just put up a tall pole behind the green or something.

There's exactly what's behind #12 at Flossmoor: A pole with a bullseye.

I mentioned that if a target was really needed for most members, that you could put a bullseye on a pole behind the green. That was quickly dismissed as "something they do in Scotland."