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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #725 on: July 10, 2014, 07:05:33 AM »
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/golf/scottish-open-phil-mickelson-hails-3837183

“The holes are longer where driver is the play and the bunkers are placed properly for hitting drivers, 3‑woods and long irons off tees.

“Whereas at many of the Open Championship courses we play we end up hitting a lot of irons off tees to try to circumvent or navigate around the bunkering. They don’t have the same modern-day scale."..........



Anyone as confused by that comment as I am?

If you navigate around a bunker with an iron, presumably you simply fly it with a driver. Is Phil suggesting bunkers should not be positioned in such a way so to make players play around them, i.e. strategic bunkering?

What Phil is saying is very rarely do Tour level players have to bother with a driver on a links, and if they do the fairways are so narrow that they simply don't as it's somewhat dicey to gfigure out where the rll out will be at 350 yards.
Not defending Trump, just saying it's another reason the ball and club need reigning in as the SCALE of the game changes with modern equipment in expert's hands.
Never a good thing when modern monstrosity such as Trump is celebrated because of this (and the scale gets silly big for the rest of us as we still have to walk the holes), rather than facing the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

Fix the ball, save the classics
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #726 on: July 10, 2014, 07:27:56 AM »
Jeff

I think its more fundamentally about Mickelson. He's had a lot of plaudits for being design savvy however in this instance I think he's basically saying design a course round the players rather than the players dealing with what they are presented with. I mean, what would John Low and Stuart Paton think of these comments ?

Niall

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #727 on: July 10, 2014, 07:37:40 AM »
Jeff

I think its more fundamentally about Mickelson. He's had a lot of plaudits for being design savvy however in this instance I think he's basically saying design a course round the players rather than the players dealing with what they are presented with. I mean, what would John Low and Stuart Paton think of these comments ?

Niall

Well I'd also say he's got a PR angle as well. ;) ;D :o ::)
I'm sure when most classic links were originally designed they meant for experts to hit more drivers, no?
Building new tees may lengthen them, but again the scale is off, especially with modern day fairway narrowing.
I mean fairways are 25-50% narrower than they were in the 1920 and the ball goes 10-25% farther.
One reason older players still compete well on a links is the older players can hit their driver and fairways woods the same place the younger ones choose to hit their irons-thus no separation by length and skill.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #728 on: July 10, 2014, 09:22:10 AM »

Never a good thing when modern monstrosity such as Trump is celebrated because of this (and the scale gets silly big for the rest of us as we still have to walk the holes), rather than facing the 800 lb gorilla in the room.


Jeff, you probably explained throughout this thread why you think Trumperdeen is a monstrosity, but I don't have the energy to go back through all 31 pages to search it.  Care to give me the Readers Digest version? 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #729 on: July 10, 2014, 09:28:21 AM »
Monstrocity may be wrong word.
Maybe creation is a better word.
Not a swipe at Trump, a swipe that is the reality of big budget modern golf courses that are potentially going to host a tournament, and are in turn on a scale with the modern equipment and still have to be walked.
I'd put The Bridge, Trump, and even the Renaissance Club in that category.
The bigger the ball, the bigger the walk-particularly if the architect wants to capture views
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #730 on: July 10, 2014, 04:33:58 PM »




Its hardly the same thing Mr. Trump, but agreed, how that was allowed to be placed there, is totally beyond me.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 02:53:24 AM by Brian_Ewen »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #731 on: July 10, 2014, 04:38:49 PM »
Actually looks like a pretty good aiming point in a left to right breeze.   ;D
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #732 on: July 10, 2014, 04:40:45 PM »
I find the windmill to be less distracting and obtrusive and far more natural-looking than that wild animal pelt that Trump calls a hairpiece.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #733 on: July 10, 2014, 04:43:20 PM »
In a world where we are accustomed to seeing beautiful courses with urban backgrounds, why such a big deal over a windmill?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #734 on: July 10, 2014, 04:56:40 PM »
I don't see what the problem is with the turbine. Rather that than a coal fired power station belching its stuff out.

Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #735 on: July 10, 2014, 05:59:44 PM »
Driving thru Scotland last year I was amazed at all the new turbines, but this is one of the least offensive. Its built in an industrial estate by the sea.  If they are going to be built, this is one of the ideal places.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #736 on: July 10, 2014, 06:00:48 PM »
I've said before, and this really isn't just about Trump, I find wind turbines to be majestic. I suppose our views are shaped by function as well as form. I find the very idea of an ecologically sound energy source sitting by a golf course to be harmonious with its broader surroundings. I imagine an old school industrialist dinosaur would see it differently.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #737 on: July 10, 2014, 10:50:04 PM »

I've said before, and this really isn't just about Trump, I find wind turbines to be majestic. I suppose our views are shaped by function as well as form. I find the very idea of an ecologically sound energy source sitting by a golf course to be harmonious with its broader surroundings. I imagine an old school industrialist dinosaur would see it differently.

Paul,

I was talking to two fellows yesterday who are heavily involved in the energy business, at a high level.

I asked them about Nuclear energy.
One of their comments was that it's the cheapest energy to produce, once the plant is built, but, a plant hasn't been built in the U.S. in decades.

I then asked how the French have been so successful and why we couldn't emulate their nuclear energy model.

I won't bore you but the answer was essentially NIMBY and POLITICS and REGULATIONS



Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #738 on: July 10, 2014, 11:06:56 PM »
This is the first time I've agreed with Donald.  It is hideous.  Why don't they just build them up next to St. Andrews too?    ::)

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #739 on: July 10, 2014, 11:14:56 PM »
This is the first time I've agreed with Donald.  It is hideous.  Why don't they just build them up next to St. Andrews too?    ::)

yeah, then what's next at St. Andrews?
playing a tee shot right over a railway shed and hotel? ;) ;)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Charlie_Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #740 on: July 10, 2014, 11:23:03 PM »
Chalk me up as a fan of the new windmills.  Though in this case I'd like to see them painted black and white to match the flagsticks.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #741 on: July 11, 2014, 04:40:01 AM »

I've said before, and this really isn't just about Trump, I find wind turbines to be majestic. I suppose our views are shaped by function as well as form. I find the very idea of an ecologically sound energy source sitting by a golf course to be harmonious with its broader surroundings. I imagine an old school industrialist dinosaur would see it differently.

Paul,

I was talking to two fellows yesterday who are heavily involved in the energy business, at a high level.

I asked them about Nuclear energy.
One of their comments was that it's the cheapest energy to produce, once the plant is built, but, a plant hasn't been built in the U.S. in decades.

I then asked how the French have been so successful and why we couldn't emulate their nuclear energy model.

I won't bore you but the answer was essentially NIMBY and POLITICS and REGULATIONS



France is a country where, essentially, central government gets what it wants. This has plenty of downsides, but it does mean that the French have, for many years, been very good at making large-scale infrastructure projects happen - the brilliant high speed rail network is probably the best example of this.

That said, nuclear power in France is on a downward trend. For some time the country has been generating around 75% of its electricity from nuclear, but a bunch of those stations are now coming towards the end of their useful lives, and there doesn't appear to be much appetite to build a pile of new ones. Energy minister Segolene Royal recently brought forward a bill that would see the nuclear component cut to 50% by 2025, with renewables rising from 15% to 40%. See http://online.wsj.com/articles/france-to-dim-its-reliance-on-nuclear-power-1403113287
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #742 on: July 11, 2014, 05:09:24 AM »

I've said before, and this really isn't just about Trump, I find wind turbines to be majestic. I suppose our views are shaped by function as well as form. I find the very idea of an ecologically sound energy source sitting by a golf course to be harmonious with its broader surroundings. I imagine an old school industrialist dinosaur would see it differently.

Paul,

I was talking to two fellows yesterday who are heavily involved in the energy business, at a high level.

I asked them about Nuclear energy.
One of their comments was that it's the cheapest energy to produce, once the plant is built, but, a plant hasn't been built in the U.S. in decades.

I then asked how the French have been so successful and why we couldn't emulate their nuclear energy model.

I won't bore you but the answer was essentially NIMBY and POLITICS and REGULATIONS



Adam clearly has greater knowledge than I regarding the numbers but I can second what he says about French government. You won't hear any argument from me when it comes to the proliferation of nuclear. Obviously that doesn't mean 100% reliance on it is ideal. Actually, two or three times a year I find myself driving through France and have done ever since I was small. The emergence of wind turbines is quite striking and, for me, a pleasant site when ploughing along a dull stretch of motorway.  
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 08:53:00 AM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #743 on: July 11, 2014, 07:59:56 AM »
Jeff

I think its more fundamentally about Mickelson. He's had a lot of plaudits for being design savvy however in this instance I think he's basically saying design a course round the players rather than the players dealing with what they are presented with. I mean, what would John Low and Stuart Paton think of these comments ?

Niall

Well I'd also say he's got a PR angle as well. ;) ;D :o ::)
I'm sure when most classic links were originally designed they meant for experts to hit more drivers, no?
Building new tees may lengthen them, but again the scale is off, especially with modern day fairway narrowing.
I mean fairways are 25-50% narrower than they were in the 1920 and the ball goes 10-25% farther.
One reason older players still compete well on a links is the older players can hit their driver and fairways woods the same place the younger ones choose to hit their irons-thus no separation by length and skill.


Jeff

Interesting quote in the paper this morning from McIlroy who shot a new course record at Balgownie in the Scottish Open. He referred to how he had been working at controlling the ball, hitting low shots, practising 3/4 shots to take the spin off it etc. and how he was hitting a 4 iron 165 yds when it would normally be 225 yds. Not at all his natural game. He recognised he had to adapt to the course/conditions rather than expect the course to suit his normal game. Is that not the very essence of links golf ?

I also happened to be reading True Links last night and the Foreward by Watson where he writes about his links epithany at Lytham St Annes where he played a par 5 driver, 3 wood and 5 iron one day and the next he hit driver, 9 iron. At that point he realised that links golf isn't all about regulation yardages and being fair (my interpretation). Bear in mind he had won a couple of Opens at that point so Mickelson still has time to learn  ;)

Niall


Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #744 on: July 11, 2014, 08:50:23 AM »
There are lots of windturbines on the hills immediately north of and very visible from Brora GC.

There are windturbines off the coast of Lancashire/N. Wales too, although they maybe a bit too far to be seen from Hoylake, even with the BBC's high boom camera's.

atb
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 01:28:17 PM by Thomas Dai »

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #745 on: July 12, 2014, 01:20:18 AM »
I think Trump doesn't want to complete the Scotland project for financial reasons, and is using the windmills as a smokescreen. 

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #746 on: July 12, 2014, 06:57:56 AM »
I think Trump doesn't want to complete the Scotland project for financial reasons, and is using the windmills as a smokescreen. 

Agree about the smoke screen but suspect the reasons are far more about the lack of kudos rather than anything financial. After all, he seems to be resigned to the fact that a Trump Open Championship requires the purchase of Turnberry. Despite all the rave reviews from anyone likely to need his advertising, no one is even seriously claiming it's the best course in Aberdeen, let alone the world.
 
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #747 on: July 12, 2014, 07:27:16 AM »
I think Trump doesn't want to complete the Scotland project for financial reasons, and is using the windmills as a smokescreen. 

This is a common viewpoint and it's one I held for a while, but it's hard to see how it stacks up. He's spent whatever he has spent on the place already, a lot of money even if his claim of USD 100 million is hard to believe. It must be losing a lot each year. But he's on the edge of the strongest local economy in Scotland, one that's crying out for more hotel accommodation and where expensive houses sell easily. So why would he not build the hotel and/or at least some of the houses?

I expect to see some moves before too long. That might include selling some of the proposed housing land to other developers.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #748 on: July 12, 2014, 07:29:58 AM »
I expect to see some moves before too long. That might include selling some of the proposed housing land to other developers.

Si

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #749 on: July 12, 2014, 07:53:49 AM »
There tends to be an assumption of logic associated with Trump which ignores his personality.

Megalomaniac - - A megalomaniac is a pathological egotist, that is, someone with a psychological disorder with symptoms like delusions of grandeur and an obsession with power.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

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