Trump International Golf Links

[Ally Mcintosh]

Never, ever, trust any press reports to do with budgets for large construction projects.There are too many nuances with the numbers and it is too easy to spin things any which way.

I've spent my whole working career watching budgets for projects I'm working on being misrepresented in order to create an angle.

That's because the previously-discussed 400 room hotel is now to be a hundred and odd.

A straightforward reason then...

To Brian - Are we happy that there won't be such a large monstrosity built... or are we annoyed that Trump is not "investing" as much in the area....

Would he have stood less chance of getting permitting if he had downscaled in the planning application? That would be pretty unusual...

[Adam Lawrence]

The Trump organisation has been opposing the offshore windfarm development along the lines of 'it'll spoil the view the hotel". Does this mean that the windfarm isn't going ahead or has Trump changed his tune a bit?

All the best.

No decision has yet been taken on planning consent for the wind farm. The consortium behind it filed an application recently relating to onshore works necessary for it to go ahead - that will be the first key test.

The Trump Organization stated very clearly when it released the updated news about the hotel that nothing will proceed unless and until the wind farm is thrown out.

[Paul Gray]

The Trump organisation has been opposing the offshore windfarm development along the lines of 'it'll spoil the view the hotel". Does this mean that the windfarm isn't going ahead or has Trump changed his tune a bit?

All the best.

No decision has yet been taken on planning consent for the wind farm. The consortium behind it filed an application recently relating to onshore works necessary for it to go ahead - that will be the first key test.

The Trump Organization stated very clearly when it released the updated news about the hotel that nothing will proceed unless and until the wind farm is thrown out.

Merely speculation (where's Mucci to shout me down when needed?) but Trump's just blowing hot air. If the wind farm goes ahead he'll still want to build the hotel. His organisation have gone out of their way to point out how successful they've been so far. It would therefore seem absurd to conclude that the already high demand (demand which warrants pushing on with the second course) would be so spectacularly reduced by a few wind mills that the building of the hotel would be rendered surplus to requirements. The tourists have already voted with their apathetic feet and will continue to do so.

[Chris DeNigris]

Paul- what kind of air do you blow? 

Why do you assume that the "tourists" are apathetic? Is it just because they don't agree with you on TI?  Maybe you don't give them enough credit, eh?

Since you're so critical, what did you think of the course when you played it?

Of course Trump is posturing/reevaluating/negotiating, etc. It's what business people do when confronted with opposition and difficult obstacles and challenges. They don't typically pack up and go home. Obviously much to your chagrin in this case.

This story has several more chapters to be written- let's see what happens. Again, it probably would be a good thing if all affected parties came to a reasonable solution and the project went ahead and it became a rousing success-both for Trump and for the locals.

Brian's pasted press release has an obvious anti-Trump bias and is misleading on many points. It's purpose is to imply a massive backlash against Trump International and to influence public opinion. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that-both sides play that way- but it's always good to be informed.

[Thomas Dai]

A whole load of interesting posts - course design, sand dune formations, politics, SSSI's, cost, wildlife, local residents rights, potential visitors, more jobs, additional income £$£$, ego, vanity, image, windfarms, houses, hotels.

The Trump Aberdeen course is however, presently closed until 11th April.

It is due to close again on 1st Nov for 2 weeks, then re-open for 2 more and then close again on 1st Dec for the remainder of 2013.

By my rough count this means it'll be open for 218 days this year, or 60% of the time.

When it re-opens the cost to play 18-holes will be -

£215 each for 18-holes at a weekend
£195 each for 18-holes during the week

For locals there is a slight discount -

£172 for 18-holes at a weekend,
£156 for 18-holes during the week

Tee times are at 15 minute intervals.

GCA contains a great many extremely keen and knowledgable golfers, the sort of people who £$£$ permitting, are prepared to travel long distances to play new or premier or unique courses. Obviously there will be other players as well, whether from the UK or from overseas or from local oil industry corporate events etc.

However, if you are planning on playing Trump Aberdeen this year could you please let us all know. No slight or criticism is intended but reviewing the numbers of golfing enthusiasts from a site like GCA who are actually planning to play it during 2013 ought to be an fascinating exercise and will help satisfy some, but admittedly not all, of the curiosity over play on the course.

All the best.

PS - If you are a real statistics fiend I guess you could establish the actual usage data by checking the on-line tee-time booking sheets on a daily basis, but I hope none of us are that sad, well as least not yet!

[Jud_T]

I must say I like the 15 minute intervals.  For those kind of prices you don't want to feel as if you're being herded around like cattle.

[Steve Lapper]

I understand the 15 min interval was carefully chosen by senior Trump Management for a number of reasons:

1) To allow players to adequately adapt to a new golf course. For some time to come, they expect a predominance of golfers to be playing their first round there. Accordingly, nearer to the Summer Solstice, they'll narrow the pm times in the future.

2) To give caddies time to search for lost balls. Last season, with the heavy spring and early summer rains, the marrum grasses and other assorted flora made it tough to find wayward shots.

3) Give the players a chance to choose from the different tee options. Their caddies made it a practice to suggest different tees on different holes, requiring a variety of walks where applicable.

4) To make the player experience, as you alluded to, a positive one and avoid the herding, bunching and pressure of a virgin round on a very big, tough, course.

   Having played several rounds there last summer, I can absolutely say the pace-of-play was superb and NEVER any issue at a any time of day.

  It's clear to me that management is more interested in "getting it right" than pursuing every pound. While some will continue to condemn everything Trump, it does reflect attention to detail, a strength we laude other owner-operators for.

[Paul Gray]

Paul- what kind of air do you blow? 

Why do you assume that the "tourists" are apathetic? Is it just because they don't agree with you on TI?  Maybe you don't give them enough credit, eh?

Since you're so critical, what did you think of the course when you played it?

Of course Trump is posturing/reevaluating/negotiating, etc. It's what business people do when confronted with opposition and difficult obstacles and challenges. They don't typically pack up and go home. Obviously much to your chagrin in this case.

This story has several more chapters to be written- let's see what happens. Again, it probably would be a good thing if all affected parties came to a reasonable solution and the project went ahead and it became a rousing success-both for Trump and for the locals.

Brian's pasted press release has an obvious anti-Trump bias and is misleading on many points. It's purpose is to imply a massive backlash against Trump International and to influence public opinion. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that-both sides play that way- but it's always good to be informed.

OK, since you reject my call of apathy, perhaps you can tell me just which tourists it is that are actively encouraged to play a course which so many people don't believe should ever have been built. I've not as yet even accused Trump himself of demonstrating such a degree of crude neo-imperialism but do feel free to make the argument for me if you so wish.

And why should my views on the quality of the course effect my views on the wider issues of its development? You seem to have confused two completely separate issues. I'm not easily led off the scent with shiny things.

[Adam Lawrence]

Paul- what kind of air do you blow? 

Why do you assume that the "tourists" are apathetic? Is it just because they don't agree with you on TI?  Maybe you don't give them enough credit, eh?

Since you're so critical, what did you think of the course when you played it?

Of course Trump is posturing/reevaluating/negotiating, etc. It's what business people do when confronted with opposition and difficult obstacles and challenges. They don't typically pack up and go home. Obviously much to your chagrin in this case.

This story has several more chapters to be written- let's see what happens. Again, it probably would be a good thing if all affected parties came to a reasonable solution and the project went ahead and it became a rousing success-both for Trump and for the locals.

Brian's pasted press release has an obvious anti-Trump bias and is misleading on many points. It's purpose is to imply a massive backlash against Trump International and to influence public opinion. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that-both sides play that way- but it's always good to be informed.

Chris, I'm not sure the journalists at the Scotsman would be happy with your characterisation of their output as a 'press release'!

[Chris DeNigris]

Paul- what kind of air do you blow? 

Why do you assume that the "tourists" are apathetic? Is it just because they don't agree with you on TI?  Maybe you don't give them enough credit, eh?

Since you're so critical, what did you think of the course when you played it?

Of course Trump is posturing/reevaluating/negotiating, etc. It's what business people do when confronted with opposition and difficult obstacles and challenges. They don't typically pack up and go home. Obviously much to your chagrin in this case.

This story has several more chapters to be written- let's see what happens. Again, it probably would be a good thing if all affected parties came to a reasonable solution and the project went ahead and it became a rousing success-both for Trump and for the locals.

Brian's pasted press release has an obvious anti-Trump bias and is misleading on many points. It's purpose is to imply a massive backlash against Trump International and to influence public opinion. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that-both sides play that way- but it's always good to be informed.

Chris, I'm not sure the journalists at the Scotsman would be happy with your characterisation of their output as a 'press release'!

Adam,

I'm not sure why the journalists at the Scotsman should be happy to publish a piece so obviously biased and misleading. Go figure.

[Mark Pearce]

Chris,

Which part of Scotland do you live in?

[Chris DeNigris]

Chris,

Which part of Scotland do you live in?

Mark,

What part of the US are you from?

[Brian_Ewen]

Since you're so critical, what did you think of the course when you played it?

Chris, discussion of the golf course itself has been pointless exercise on here !

[Mark Pearce]

Chris,

Which part of Scotland do you live in?

Mark,

What part of the US are you from?

I'm not.  Which is why I avoid making statements about the views of the US population.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Chris,

Which part of Scotland do you live in?

Mark,

What part of the US are you from?

I'm not.  Which is why I avoid making statements about the views of the US population.

 

Earlier in this 'debate' Chris instructed me on what the angle of the filmmakers were.  A film that he had difficulty admitting he hadn't actually seen.


Chris is there any reason why you are such a shill for the Donald?

[Chris DeNigris]

Chris,

Which part of Scotland do you live in?

Mark,

What part of the US are you from?

I'm not.  Which is why I avoid making statements about the views of the US population.

Mark,

Now that's rich 

I suggest you review your 4400+ previous posts and see if that's entirely true..

You've even PM'd me on such in the past...

[Chris DeNigris]

Chris,

Which part of Scotland do you live in?

Mark,

What part of the US are you from?

I'm not.  Which is why I avoid making statements about the views of the US population.

 

Earlier in this 'debate' Chris instructed me on what the angle of the filmmakers were.  A film that he had difficulty admitting he hadn't actually seen.


Chris is there any reason why you are such a shill for the Donald?

Tony,

So quick to smile.

Earlier in the "debate" I simply tried- as I've been trying all along- to point out the actual facts of the TI saga...which again can mostly all be found in the Report to Scottish Ministers that's been referenced repeatedly (although it seems to little avail).

Contrary to your above statement, I had absolutely no difficulty in admitting that I hadn't viewed the "film"...much for the same reasons why I don't view any Michael Moore propaganda pieces...no need, I know what the biased message is. I'll leave it to the rest of the viewing world to determine if the Trump "film" is an objective documentary or a propaganda hatchet job. It's usually not too difficult to determine.

And lastly- I'm not a Trump shill-Pat M has that job already 

All I'm trying to do is point out all the mis-information that is so easily and conveniently bandied about here and elsewhere-usually by those with a complete anti-Trump bias and, in the case of some, vendetta.

I don't need to be a Scottish citizen to do that. 

I love golf in Scotland (and Ireland too) and I'd love to play TI someday. It would be sad if it's not around when I can finally make it back.

[Adam Lawrence]

Paul- what kind of air do you blow? 

Why do you assume that the "tourists" are apathetic? Is it just because they don't agree with you on TI?  Maybe you don't give them enough credit, eh?

Since you're so critical, what did you think of the course when you played it?

Of course Trump is posturing/reevaluating/negotiating, etc. It's what business people do when confronted with opposition and difficult obstacles and challenges. They don't typically pack up and go home. Obviously much to your chagrin in this case.

This story has several more chapters to be written- let's see what happens. Again, it probably would be a good thing if all affected parties came to a reasonable solution and the project went ahead and it became a rousing success-both for Trump and for the locals.

Brian's pasted press release has an obvious anti-Trump bias and is misleading on many points. It's purpose is to imply a massive backlash against Trump International and to influence public opinion. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that-both sides play that way- but it's always good to be informed.

Chris, I'm not sure the journalists at the Scotsman would be happy with your characterisation of their output as a 'press release'!

Adam,

I'm not sure why the journalists at the Scotsman should be happy to publish a piece so obviously biased and misleading. Go figure.

I'm not sure I see the bias. The petition is fact, whether or not they originally expected only 2,000 signatures I am not sure.

I will say this: there remains a large-scale groundswell of UK opinion that is hostile to this project. Part of that is the usual anti-golf stuff that comes up whenever a new golf course is considered, part of it is anti-Trump simply because of who he is, part of it is anti-Trump because of the confrontational way in which his organisation has behaved all the way through the project, a bit is anti-American (though you should note there was precious little opposition of this kind to Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart or Renaissance Club, all US-led projects) and and part of it is anti-establishment because of the way the Scottish Executive went above the heads of the local authorities that would normally handle a planning application of this kind.

Furthermore, it remains newsworthy. Whenever we carry a story on our website about Trump Scotland it is always the most read item on the site for several days, sometimes even weeks. That's because the nature of the man takes it beyond a simple golf story.

Trump is polarising, and this project has been polarising from the start. Now, he is back in the headlines because of the plans for the second course, and the hotel. But you shouldn't dismiss opposition as being the same old voices mouthing the same old platitudes. I have never known a golf project which has as many people _in the golf industry itself_ opposed to it.

The most interesting question of all is whether Trump could have won planning consent and built his courses without taking such a confrontational stand. I genuinely don't know the answer to that, though obviously it is moot, and probably was from the start - he has never been a low-key, behind the scenes operator, and it seems highly unlikely he'd start now.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Brian's pasted press release has an obvious anti-Trump bias and is misleading on many points.

Ok Chris please highlight the “many points” that are misleading in the following.  As has already been pointed out it’s not a press release.   It’s a record of the fact that a petition has been raised and what the Petitioner wants to happen next.   You claim to be on the side of facts. Please point out the ‘many’ that the Scotsman got wrong in this article.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/11-000-sign-petition-for-inquiry-into-trump-project-1-2829353

11,000 sign petition for inquiry into Trump project
Published on Monday 11 March 2013
A PETITION calling for a public inquiry into the handling of Donald Trump’s controversial golf project on the North Sea coast has attracted more than 11,000 signatures, exceeding its organisers’ expectations.

David Milne, an opponent of the scheme at Menie, north of Aberdeen, said he had hoped for 2,000 signatures. The petition is being lodged at the Scottish Parliament today, two weeks earlier than planned.

Mr Milne said: “There’s clearly a growing appetite to get to the bottom of this fiasco, and to make sure no other community anywhere in Scotland ever has to face down the combination of a bullying developer and officials determined to see them get their way.

“This is not a party political matter – it’s a systematic failure. At Holyrood and locally we have seen successive administrations of various colours cosy up to Mr Trump.

“It is now up to the MSPs who sit on the Public Petitions Committee to choose: do they want to find out what went wrong and ensure it never does again, or do they want to guarantee the whole story is never even told.

“I am confident that they will listen to the public and do the right thing, and I look forward to having an opportunity to discuss these issues with them in person.”

Mr Milne, a 48-year-old independent health and safety consultant who lives near Trump’s golf complex, claims that some bodies, including Aberdeenshire Council and the Scottish Government, were involved in breaches of planning regulations before Mr Trump was given the green light to construct his links course.

If Mr Milne’s petition is successful, it would see a comprehensive inquiry established into local and national government involvement with the Trump organisation. The timescale would cover former first minister Jack McConnell’s Labour-led Scottish Executive, Alex Salmond’s SNP government and Aberdeenshire Council, which was controlled at the time by Liberal Democrats.

Earlier he said: “We have had to be patient to get to this stage, but we are calling for a full public inquiry into what happened and we want the full facts to emerge. Now, we are hoping that many other Scots will share our concerns over the background to how Trump was ­allowed to build this course.”

The planning application for the golf complex was initially rejected by a local authority committee, causing turmoil among councillors, and was controversially called in by the Scottish Government.
The First Minister became MSP for the area in 2007. The plan was subsequently rubber-stamped by the council, then approved by Finance Secretary John Swinney in November 2008.

No-one from the Trump organisation responded to phone calls last night. However, last month Sarah Malone, the executive vice-president of Trump International, spoke about the petition.

She said: “The project has ­already gone through years of scrutiny and debate during a lengthy planning process, including a public inquiry in the full media spotlight. Mr Milne needs to move on. He attempted this before and it failed, because there is no basis for it.

“The championship course is now established and drawing thousands of golfers from around the world and creating business opportunities and much-needed jobs.”

Trump is now locked in a heated battle to stop an offshore wind farm being built within sight of his golf course.

A planning application for the wind farm was submitted to Marine Scotland – which manages Scotland’s seas – in August 2011 for the development just over a mile away from Trump’s golf resort at Menie.

Trump said £100 million hotel ­development is on hold until the decision on whether the nearby 11-turbine offshore wind farm proposal is approved is made.

Yes there is a considerable anti Trump contingent but I am at a loss as to why have you become a self- appointed defender of Trump and, by implication, his methods?  

[Chris DeNigris]

Tony,

Not only are you quick to smile, you're pretty quick with the keystroke as well. 

Bias is often found in the nuance and frequently in what is not said. You also mischaracterized my comments- I said misleading, not wrong.

Mr. Milne is not just some objective "independent health and safety consultant who lives near Trump's complex"- he's one of the handful of residents who has been at war with Trump since the inception of the project (he's the fence guy), quite possibly for reasons of personal gain.

11,000 signatures- we all know how valid petition signatures are in emotional and controversial issues. How many environmentalists are on the list? Any attempt to validate by the investigative journalists?

"No one from the Trump organization responded to phone calls last night"- really, that was an earnest attempt to get the other side's view prior to publishing...what time did they call, just before midnight?

It's my opinion that the article was biased and misleading...and I stand by that opinion. You're entitled to opine differently. In doing so I won't brand you as a "self appointed anti-Trump zealot"...

Tony, the vast majority of the citizenry in Aberdeenshire, including most of the Council and the Chamber of Commerce were all in favor of the Trump proposal before what some consider a "rogue" committee councilor went against the majority of the local council-quite likely for political reasons- and caused the proposal to be rejected.

Have you read the Report to Scottish Ministers?

After you do we can discuss which parts of that report are biased and/or inaccurate.

[Mark Pearce]

Chris,

First of all, a masterful response to my previous post.  Magnificent in it's Mucci-esque misuse of context.  If you have the time to review all my posts and find me stating the views of the US population I'd be fascinated by the results.  As to our PM exchange you are, of course right.  I did express an opinion on the views of parts of the US population, as widely publicised in reporting of issues arising out of your recent presidential election.  At least I assume that's the PM you are talking about.

Tony, the vast majority of the citizenry in Aberdeenshire, including most of the Council and the Chamber of Commerce were all in favor of the Trump proposal before what some consider a "rogue" committee councilor went against the majority of the local council-quite likely for political reasons- and caused the proposal to be rejected.

Magnificent.  We know that the Chamber and Chamber of Commerce were in favour.  As to the vast majority of citizenry, how do we know this?  By the way, I'm not suggesting they weren't in favour.  For what it's worth the relatively small sample of Aberdonians I spoke to before the decision were pretty much all in favour.

I also wouldn't disagree with the suggestion that Mr Milne is about as reliable source as the Trump organisation.  I have heard first hand stories (albeit from an ex-employee, who did not leave on good terms) of some of the methods adopted by Trump and, frankly, they don't reflect well on his character.

I haven't played TI yet but hope I may get the chance this year.  On balance I think it is probably a good thing it was built (as is also the case with CS, Renaissance, Mach Dunes, Kingsbarns and Dundonald) but I do think that The Donald has much he could learn from the way other developers have gone about getting approval and selling themselves locally.

[Sean_A]

Tony, the vast majority of the citizenry in Aberdeenshire, including most of the Council and the Chamber of Commerce were all in favor of the Trump proposal before what some consider a "rogue" committee councilor went against the majority of the local council-quite likely for political reasons- and caused the proposal to be rejected.

Chris - who is biased?  I think you need to read the information again.  It would seem you have taken on Trump's persona concerning Mr. Ford.  I like the references to

"vast majority" - according to who?
"rogue committee councilor went against the majority of the local council-quite likely for political reasons- and caused the proposal to be rejected" Mr Ford exercised his casting vote as Chair of the Comm.  That means the Comm was split.  These facts would not support the idea of "rogue committee councillor" as anything remotely close to accurate.  In fact, its incredible that any cllr could have voted in favour of the proposal given the government SSSI protection of the dunes system.  But then, this has all been explained to you in great detail.  Obviously, you choose to overlook the facts and instead side with Trump's PR machine.  I spose that is no great crime - afterall the Scottish Government caved before anybody even knew what was on the table.  Overturning a legal decision by Aberdeenshire Co Council was only the formal aspect of this sorry saga.  The government screwed up from day 1.  They wanted a Trump project,  but didn't want to be seen as forcing it down the throats of the Abedrdeen Co Council.  In the end, that is exactly what happened.  Not only was a legal decision overturned for some vague (very vague!) concept of development, but the government stood by while Trump's crew and the police abused its citizens. Classy decision-making and I don't blame Trump in the least.  He used tactics that worked.  The great failing here is on the part of the Scottish Government and Abederdeenshire Co Council for not having the balls to stand behind a local, legally binding decision.  

In the end, its too late for anymore legal wrangling. What is done is done and I hope the project is a success because given what was sacrificed it would terrible shame not to fail.



Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

As I type this there have been 500 posts on this thread, maybe there'll more by the time I click 'post'

One thing intrigues me though, I know that some here have played the course but has anyone played Trump Aberdeen yet who has actually paid for the experience out of their own pocket - ie no freebee's?

All the best.

[Chris DeNigris]

Sean,

With all due respect- You're wrong. And just a little condescending as well.

As I have suggested to you and others with an interest in this several times before- please read the very detailed and informative Report to Scottish Ministers. Granted, it's 295 pages but unlike most of what you and several others have consistently and erroneously put out as fact- it actually provides all the background information, references, supporting detail and all the varying points of view from all the involved parties.

I'm not really a Trump-lover. I agree with Adam that there's a whole host of valid reasons why some folks are less than enamored with the man, myth and legend that is DT.

I just don't like propaganda and mis-information. Read the Report- if you're going to be so opinionated on the subject you should at least base your opinions on something factual. It's something you should make some time for.

[Niall C]

Chris

Sean, and Adam for that matter, is pretty clued up on this ongoing saga but perhaps you could do us all a favour and let us know what facts Sean has got wrong. Perhaps you could also advise of which government report you allude to, is it the Reporters report on the planning application or is it some other report, I'd be interested to know.

With regards to the Scotsman article, it seems a straight forward story to me. The only quibble I would have is with regards to the quote from Sarah Malone. From reading the article, the petition (which I've not seen) is a request for an inquiry into the action of successive local and central governments in relation to the planning application, and not the planning application itself, while Ms Malone's quote refers to the application and I think misses the point of the petition. The fact that its an old quote and in my view misses the point, suggests to me that she might not have actually had the chance to read or considered the petition before beiing asked for a quote, which can sometimes happen. In the circumstances I think it would have been fairer simply to state that no one was available for comment.

While I'm on the subject of Ms Malone, I'm sure you'll join me in wishing her hearty congratulations on her recent marriage to the editor of the Press and Journal. No doubt the P&J will continue to approach anything to do with DT and Balmedie International with complete impartiality as its always done  .

Niall