Trump International Golf Links

[Pat Burke]

Obviously you are obtuse when it comes to recognizing Trump's marketing methods, which have nothing to do with the alleged statements you cited.

You keep harping on those two alleged statements as if they're the sole and entire focus of the project.

Alleged, Patrick? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk-MHQE2xPQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=78s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK4R0BRJZTs&feature=player_detailpage#t=35s

I have even gone to the effort to give you a link to the exact time the alleged comments are allegedly being made, but let me guess.  Your next response, in green ink, will be that the videos have been doctored by radical lefties that have never worked a day in their lives?

And since I am so obtuse, can you please tell me who is Trump's target market?  Given his boorishness and methods so far, I can only surmise it is people like this:
                                      

Put a POLO logo on the shirt and an oversize baseball cap on that kid....Davis was a child actor???

[Niall C]

Mark

Who told you I play the banjo ?

Patrick

I'm no expert on grow in periods or conditioning etc but suggest its more to do with giving it time than the weather. Its possible the sanding and turfing have been done relatively recently just before they closed for the winter so maybe he thought no big deal. I won't bore you with the details but while the cost of the round was £120, the cost was partially off-set by savings elsewhere, otherwise I would have been knocking on the door asking for at least a partial refund. I haven't noticed anything in the press about its present condition which surprises me but there you go.

Niall

[Brian_Ewen]

You don't analyze and evaluate the design, features or play of the course

How many Trump courses have you played Mr Mucci ?

[Brian_Ewen]

LoL !

Correct, but the weather will get the blame 

Did this Year's weather have anything to do with the conditions.

Given normal weather patterns, how long before playing conditions are optimal ?

[Sean_A]

Mark

Who told you I play the banjo ?

Patrick

I'm no expert on grow in periods or conditioning etc but suggest its more to do with giving it time than the weather. Its possible the sanding and turfing have been done relatively recently just before they closed for the winter so maybe he thought no big deal. I won't bore you with the details but while the cost of the round was £120, the cost was partially off-set by savings elsewhere, otherwise I would have been knocking on the door asking for at least a partial refund. I haven't noticed anything in the press about its present condition which surprises me but there you go.

Niall

Niall

This gets back to my comment about folks critiquing the course based on what they are told will happen rather than what is in the ground today.  Thats a bad approach that reeks of turning a blind eye if you ask me, but at least one person on this board seemed to think it wasn't a big issue.  As a guy who is not keen on rough, I for one have heard enough people mention it that just about all the red flags in me pockets are on the floor.

Ciao 

[Patrick_Mucci]

You don't analyze and evaluate the design, features or play of the course

How many Trump courses have you played Mr Mucci ?

More than you !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Niall,

Comparatively, how were conditions at other nearby courses ?

Mark,

What does Trump's conduct, bad or good, alleged or actual, have to do with the quality of the golf course ?

Brian,

This may shock you, and I've stated it previously, but I'm not enamored with the Trump course I've played.

But you have to understand that the course in Scotland, WPB and the new Bedminster course are the only three I know of that he didn't acquire.
I believe that those are the only ones built from scratch.

[Mark_F]

Mark

Who told you I play the banjo ?

Niall,

Everyone on GCA is surely entitled to a once-off curiosity round before being tarred. 

Mark,

What does Trump's conduct, bad or good, alleged or actual, have to do with the quality of the golf course ?

Patrick,

Of course it should have nothing to do with it.  But if you can't take the ocean away from Pebble, why can you take the Trump away from Trump Scotland?

The reality is that every course you play is an experience as a whole, and comes with baggage, whether it be historical, membership, tournaments or your own preconceived expectations.  Trump is for some the brash and ugly face of American Capitalist excess, for others his persona is nothing more than a harmless sideshow that is part of a clever marketing schema.

At the end of the day he obviously couldn't care less.  He has achieved what he wanted and many people will play the course because of the Trump brand.   But there are right and wrong ways to do things, and this entire project seems to have been one of questionable politics, unverifiable figures, skullduggery and unnecessary aggravation.  His brand is going to attract custom regardless - if Trump is as clever as you seem to believe he is, then why would he believe acting the way he has is going to attract people who don't care about the Trump brand?

[Brian_Ewen]

Brian,
This may shock you, and I've stated it previously, but I'm not enamored with the Trump course I've played.

One ?

More than you !

One ?

[Niall C]

Sean

I think there is enough there to give a reasoned opinion on what it will be like as the greens and approaches are in very good nick, its the rest of the course that is poor in terms of the quality of the playing surface. I also think the issue of rough and lost balls is over stated as well, as Mike and I played in a pretty stiff breeze and neither of us lost a ball until into the back nine. The fairways might not be Castle Stuart width with attendant light rough flanking but they certainly aren't tight. What might surprise some is the amount of wet areas on the course, by that I mean salt marsh areas.

Mark

Don't worry, I wasn't getting my dungarees in a twist.

Re your comments on unverifiable figures, todays Trump Gazette (formerly known as the Press and Journal  ) is running a comp in todays edition to win a fourball at Trump International in which it states the fourball is worth £1,200 or £300 a player. For that you get your round, a trump goody bag (from my experience that is the now standard gift bag for these places of a pouch, a number of tees, marker, strokesaver and golf ball, all of which is included in the greenfee) a bacon roll on arrival and 45 minute lesson from the pro before going out to play. Now given the cost of a round is what £120 ?, then either David Leadbetter is giving the lesson or your getting the best bacon roll in Scotland.

Patrick

I haven't played Royal Aberdeen (at all), Murcar or Cruden Bay or any of the other courses in Aberdeen this year but on the reasonable assumption they are like Moray Old and many of the other links round Scotland that I've played this year, they will be a bit slower than usual with slightly less tight lies due to there being a bit more grass, however the turf will still be firm enough to allow you to squeeze the ball, as Peter Thomson would say.

Niall

[Brian_Ewen]

The fairways might not be Castle Stuart width with attendant light rough flanking but they certainly aren't tight.

I would agree, but the 1st seems awfully tight to me.

[Adam Lawrence]

There are tight bits for sure. The first doesn't offer a lot of room in the drive zone, nor for that matter does the fourteenth. I think the impression of tightness is exaggerated because of the rough management issues, and when those are fixed it'l be a lot more playable. But for now, it sure seems tight in places.

[Gary Slatter]

this thread could make a superb play, a golf related jury-room type.

[Jason Thurman]

Mark,

What does Trump's conduct, bad or good, alleged or actual, have to do with the quality of the golf course ?

Patrick,

Of course it should have nothing to do with it.  But if you can't take the ocean away from Pebble, why can you take the Trump away from Trump Scotland?

Well for one, the ocean at Pebble is actually part of the course. It dominates the setting and is in play on 9 holes. As far as I'm aware, none of the rough at Trump International is seeded with the Donald's hair, none of the greens are shaped like his face, and there's no giant hazard composed entirely of him that's in play on 9 holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian,
This may shock you, and I've stated it previously, but I'm not enamored with the Trump course I've played.

One ?

More than you !

Brian,

That was a typo, it should have been "courses".

I've played more than one.

One ?

[Michael Whitaker]

My thoughts on Trump Scotland...

In time I think the course will be considered one of Scotland's very best by the game's best players. I think it will hold championships... for sure the Scottish Open, maybe the Ryder Cup... perhaps The Open during our lifetime. After seeing the course I would not put anything out of Mr. Trump's reach.

The course is in a truly magnificent setting. The dunescape is unlike anything I have ever seen... it dwarfs the dunes at Royal Aberdeen, Cruden Bay and Ballybunion. They are MASSIVE and (politics aside) it is easy to understand why the Trump team was so excited about the property and determined to get the course built there. It is the most impressive site for a golf course I have experienced.

The fairways are plenty wide. As Niall said, we didn't lose a ball until well into the back nine... and, we were playing in what the caddies described as the worst day for wind since the course opened! I think the fairways look so narrow in the pictures because the the dunes are so massive that when you include them in the picture it makes the fairway look small. You just can't believe how big these dunes are until you see them in person!

As for the current condition of the course... it was disappointing. Our caddies told us that "lift, clean and place" was the rule of the day. Why? Because the fairways are mostly grass on sand... not knitted turf... just grass growing on sand. As a result, when you hit a shot the fairway explodes beneath your club, like hitting from a sandy area next to a well used bunker. One is forced to pick the ball clean to get a good result. All this will resolve itself with time. The course was just opened too early.

As for the design, there are a lot of great holes and everything is connected in a beautiful fashion. There is a wonderful flow to the sequence and it is an enjoyable walk. I thought the par fives were too repetitive with their bunker schemes... but, the par threes are all world, especially #3. I'm not a great golfer, so I can't really speak to the "championship" quality of the design, but based on what I have seen of the best courses around the world this course can hold it's own against the best the game has to offer. I think it could be set up to prevent Rory from breaking 80.

Like Castle Stuart and Kingbarns, Trump International Scotland is not a true links in the old school mold. It is a "modern" links course with fairways absent of the crumpled surfaces found at older courses. They are not as smoothly contured as Castle Stuart... more like what you would find at Birkdale with some subtle random bumps along the way. The greenside contours are a bit harsh in places, but I think those will soften over time.

All in all it is an impressive place. I suspect it will debut in the top 30 in the world when it qualifies for the rankings.

The bottom line for me is that I am not a fan of facilities built for elite corporate golf entertainment... if successful they drive up the cost of golf for everyone at surrounding courses. This is already happening in the Dornoch area and in Fife with the success of Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns. The Trump course WILL be successful and it will bring a lot of golf vacationers to the area who would not otherwise visit there. Without exception, everyone I talked with in the area was excited to have the Trump course and was looking forward to the increase in business it would bring. No one was critical of what had transpired.

[Sean_A]

Niall

There seems to be an issue of wind direction as to rough issues.  Either that or a disparity in playing level.  I tend to think generally of rough as a tolerable issue.  In other words, should a given shot (miss) be accommodated?  This year it seems there have been more instances of misses not being tolerated which I believe should have been.  But then I come from a school of thought which doesn't view rough in a positive light.  I prefer minimal interference of rough on the game.  I think I said before that it is ever so rare to find a course which is too wide.  I can understand the philosophy of pinching hazards (even though I usually don't care for it) especially when the penalty for an error is essentially a lost shot, but I have a hard time getting my head around looking for balls in rough.  I trust you are correct, only that rough has been mentioned by many people, which is why I suspect the varying opinions are either wind direction or skill level difference based. 

As for conditioning, I usually don't worry too much about it unless the course is drastically effected.  This is quite rare in my experience, but I still can only base a judgement on what I see.  I personally would never presume that things will get better and therefore bump my opinion of a course up.  This is how life works, often times there is only one opportunity to impress.  It is in instances such as this where I suspect it makes a huge difference if one is comped or if one has paid full whack. 

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

As for conditioning, I usually don't worry too much about it unless the course is drastically effected.  This is quite rare in my experience, but I still can only base a judgement on what I see.  I personally would never presume that things will get better and therefore bump my opinion of a course up.  This is how life works, often times there is only one opportunity to impress.  It is in instances such as this where I suspect it makes a huge difference if one is comped or if one has paid full whack. 

Ciao

Sean,

don't you think at £120 the course should be in near perfect condition.

Jon

[Sean_A]

As for conditioning, I usually don't worry too much about it unless the course is drastically effected.  This is quite rare in my experience, but I still can only base a judgement on what I see.  I personally would never presume that things will get better and therefore bump my opinion of a course up.  This is how life works, often times there is only one opportunity to impress.  It is in instances such as this where I suspect it makes a huge difference if one is comped or if one has paid full whack.  

Ciao

Sean,

don't you think at £120 the course should be in near perfect condition.

Jon

Jon

That would be grand, but in my experience courses (no matter the green fee) are rarely in near perfect condition.  This year, the only courses I can think of that were in near perfect condition (a situation where the design is significantly enhanced) were lowly Painswick and Sutton Coldfield.  I think the courses in the south of England have a much better chance to be in very good nick than do courses in Scotland.  If conditions are okay I don't mind, its when they seem off compared to the weather that I then get cheesed.  Just as its rare to find very well conditioned courses, its rare to find poorly conditioned courses.  This year only Blackwell has stood out as grossly unfit for the green fee.  But generally speaking, I don't think it unreasonable to expect more in all aspects (better design, better conditions, better service, nicer house etc) from £120 than I would from £50 green fee.  In the Trump case though we have a lot of guys on a freebie junket so the green fee is not nearly such an issue.  In the real world of paying customers, this is far from reality.  

Ciao

[Kris Shreiner]

Michael W.,

Thanks for the fine assessment of what you found there at Trump Scotland. Sounds like the bones are there, just an ambitious opening has the place wanting in some areas one would expect. How did you find the tight-mown green surrounds transition to the heavy perimeter rough? It looked rather harsh and abrupt in spots judging from the photos I glimpsed. Have they beaten those areas down into submission?

Did you see much play about the course when you were there? Was the staff mainly Scottish? Thanks in advance for your insights.

Cheers, Kris

[Brian_Ewen]

don't you think at £120 the course should be in near perfect condition.

£120 is the locals rate.

£150 for golfers without a AB postal address.

Well thats what i was told anyway.

[Niall C]

Thanks Brian, in that case its £150 for a golf lesson and a bacon roll, excellent value 

Mike's post is spot on and I wouldn't argue with anything he said other than to perhaps quibble about the suitability of the landscape, the number of great holes it has, and perhaps how high up the rankings it will go. Interesting though that before reading Mike's post I had posted on the Birkdale thread saying how it reminded me of Trump.

Sean

Two days prior I was speaking to the pro at Duff House Royal who was saying that one of his members played Trump and lost 29 golf balls. I queried who in their right mind even carries 29 golf balls. He suggested that the guy had found 16 on his way round while looking for the ones he lost. I tend to think there some gross exaggeration somewhere. I also remember when Gil Hanse, he of wide open Castle Stuart fame, had his Craighead course open at Crail, it quickly got a rep as being an easy place to lose balls. No one says that now.

Overall I do agree about rough, its just I see it as different texture. Playing out of semi-rough on a links offers different options than say playing off a tight lie on the fairway while playing out of the longer stuff offers a differnet challenge/opportunity again. Unfortunately this year has been so brutal that often its hard enough just to find your ball in the longer stuff never mind play a decent recovery shot.

Niall

[David_Tepper]

My guess is this would be the wrong summer to pass the judgement on the rough of any links course in GB&I, given this summer's historic levels of rain.

[Jon Wiggett]

I would agree with comments on the rough in both Niall and David's posts. This year has been brutal for rough growing in Scotland and new courses often have rough issues in the first few years.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Time will tell on Trump. This year has been bad, but we have had a few bad years recently.  For £120 I would expect better control of the rough than I would from a cheaper course.  What in fact is often the case is the opposite is true.  This is not nearly as much to do with the weather as it is championship mentality.  I am guessing the holes cutting through dunes will always be problematic in terms of rough and awkward lies (meaning even fairly light rough is difficult).  It seems to be that way at most other places with holes like this which is why it is welcome relief to break out of high dunes and play on the flat for some holes.   

Ciao