Trump International Golf Links

[jeffwarne]

Niall,

Do you think he opened it prematurely in order to catch the end of this year's summer season ?

Co-incidently, I ran into Donald at a wedding we attended last Saturday night.
We were seated next to each other during the ceremony.
After the ceremony and during the reception we discussed the course, and the permitting processes that he had to go through or get around in order to bring the course to fruition.

I sensed a strong committment on his part to do whatever it takes to improve and elevate the course to it's fullest potential.
Whether that takes a few months or a few years didn't seem to matter.
He's committed to improving that course.

I believe that there's a good chance that it will be awarded the Scottish Open and a future Ryder Cup.

As beautiful as Melania looks in photos, she's far more stunning in person.
The terms "Breath taking" and "Riveting" come to mind.
She's both elegant and gorgeous and I would prefer talking to and about her.

I told Donald that I thought alot of the criticism of the course would never have reared it's head had his name been Mike Keiser.
I believe that he agreed.

 

Exactly what would one criticize about Mike Keiser?
Name a course of Keiser that deserved criticism when it opened?
What grandiose claims has he made to artificially inflate expectations?

I would argue that Donald's course wouldn't get " a lot"(your words) of criticism if:

 A. he himself hadn't elevated expectations "the best course in the world.....etc."
or
B. it was better

[Bryan Izatt]

Can it be that it's almost four years since we discussed the merits of the proposed design for the 10th hole?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37483.0.html


Apropos of wind farms, I couldn't help but notice significant wind farms off of Silloth and Wallasey in the last week.  If Trump gets his way, Aberdeen might be the only coast without wind turbines. 

Picture below from the 4th tee at Wallasey.  I can't say that they ruined my golf experience.  They have a certain majesty to them.

[Tony_Muldoon]

As I've said before I've grown to dislike the sight of them.

But planting them in straight lines perpendicular to the coast?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall - other way round: turfed greens and approaches, seeded fairways. Fairways need to mature, but they have stored up pretty long term troubles by overseeing in on or two places (eg ninth fairway) with perennial ryegrass, presumably because they were desperate for coverage before opening day.

I agree the tenth doesn't work - I can see no reason why anyone would ever play for the right fairway, and the bottleneck on the left fairway basically forces you not to hit driver off the tee, odd for a par five.

I don't mind the last, except that tee is much too elevated. You have a 650 yard hole with 18 bunkers, and yet it looks small and insignificant from the tee, because you're so far up.

Lots of good holes though - first green excellent, second hole super, etc. Will be really good when it matures

Adam,

I'd be interested in your take on what long term problems you think they have stored up with seeding perennial ryegrass in places? I presume the plan is at some point to overseed with their fescue mix and kill the ryegrass with rescue?

Niall - I'm with you (and Adam) on the 10th hole. Although I liked the idea of the semi-blind approach in to an ampitheatre, in reality the opening is so tight that I'm not sure this green is ever on in two. But then maybe that's the point. I'd like to see it played by a lot of different standards of players before making final judgement. And also can't see the right fairway working.

I quite liked the bunker placement on 18. In my opinion there is nothing wrong with a little bit of chaos and you certainly had to plot your way around. However, there are a lot of them and so I think maybe a little variety in size and shape would have been useful for the scale.

Think I'd choose the front nine over the back nine. Loved the 8th green, 2nd and 5th good par-4's and 3rd and 6th are lovely little 3's....

[Jon Wiggett]

Adam,

I'd be interested in your take on what long term problems you think they have stored up with seeding perennial ryegrass in places? I presume the plan is at some point to overseed with their fescue mix and kill the ryegrass with rescue?

Ally,

ryegrass doesn't really belong on a links course. Whilst what you say about rescue wouldn't it have been better to get it right in the first place by just waiting for the correct grasses to growin?

Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Adam,

I'd be interested in your take on what long term problems you think they have stored up with seeding perennial ryegrass in places? I presume the plan is at some point to overseed with their fescue mix and kill the ryegrass with rescue?

Ally,

ryegrass doesn't really belong on a links course. Whilst what you say about rescue wouldn't it have been better to get it right in the first place by just waiting for the correct grasses to growin?

Jon

Jon,

That's the balance, isn't it? I don't think it really worthwhile to hold off an extra year for fescue to knit in and stabilise properly if they have only seeded small areas with rye which is fairly easily dealt with in a couple of winters time.

I ask because I've a specific interest in this approach.

If there are genuinely problems that may occur down the road then I'd like to know... I understand that whilst the rye is being killed off there will be small issues, especially to aesthetics... But anything bigger than that?

[William_G]

Pat Mucci,

You are an intelligent man.  You have strong and interesting opinions.  You are a smart analyst of arguments.

Why do you always ruin debate on this site by being an arsehole?

+1..way too bipolar

[Patrick_Mucci]

Exactly what would one criticize about Mike Keiser?

Jeff,

You missed the point

Name a course of Keiser that deserved criticism when it opened?

So you're saying that every course was perfect on opening day ?
That there were no valid criticisms or room for improvement ?

What grandiose claims has he made to artificially inflate expectations?

From what I've heard from golfers who have played the course a number of times, it lives up to the "grandiose" claims made by Donald.

I would argue that Donald's course wouldn't get " a lot"(your words) of criticism if:

 A. he himself hadn't elevated expectations "the best course in the world.....etc."

Jeff, you and others can't be that obtuse, after all these years, that you don't understand "The Donald's" marketing mantra.
or
B. it was better

If you haven't played it, how can you comment on it's merits  ?

What if it is one of the great courses of the world ?
Is it reasonable for you to expect it to be better on opening day ?

As I said to Donald, much of the criticism of the course is masked or redirected criticism of him and his persona, and nothing more.

If the course lives up to the praise it received from the fellows I know, who have played it several times, then, will you and others, admit that you've been nit picking strictly because of Donald rather than the golf course ?

[jeffwarne]

Quotes from Patrick Mucci



"Jeff, you and others can't be that obtuse, after all these years, that you don't understand "The Donald's" marketing mantra.[/b][/size][/color]"





If the course lives up to the praise it received from the fellows I know, who have played it several times, then, will you and others, admit that you've been nit picking strictly because of Donald rather than the golf course ?[/b][/size][/color]
[/quote]
[/quote]""

Why wait? I'll admit it now.
and yes I'm definitely obtuse if I'm expected to understand his "marketing mantra"

[Brian_Ewen]

The 10th is the hole that zigzags round a salt marsh and betweeen huge dunes with a split fairway for the tee shot, the right handside part of which is largely redundant. In terms of shot values its two straight shots to the gap between the dunes followed by an approach to a push up tiered green surrounded by more huge dunes. A clear example of more (as in the case of the dunes) not necessarily meaning more if you know what I mean.

Niall
What tees did you play off ?

I had to go back and look at my yardage book, as I couldnt remember the 10th having a split fairway.

The fairway on the right certainly wasnt visible from the tee that we played, and by the 10th the yardage book was soaked and had been pretty useless up to then anyway.

Even the water hazard was blind from the tees we played off !

The 10th was my least favourite hole, as after a long green to tee walk, the last thing I wanted was a long slog of a hole uphill, with a blind water hazard that everyone went into.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,

if the areas were so small then why seed them with an unsuitable strain? Surely they would either have little effect on the play and if they did, they could be sodded. Also from what understand it was the general condition that was poor not small areas seed with rye. I would suggest that it has been opened too early given the greenfee cost and hype. They would have been better advised to wait a year and present a course for which they in keeping with their claims.

Jon

[Brian_Ewen]

I would suggest that it has been opened too early given the greenfee cost and hype. They would have been better advised to wait a year and present a course for which they in keeping with their claims.

Correct, but the weather will get the blame 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

if the areas were so small then why seed them with an unsuitable strain? Surely they would either have little effect on the play and if they did, they could be sodded. Also from what understand it was the general condition that was poor not small areas seed with rye. I would suggest that it has been opened too early given the greenfee cost and hype. They would have been better advised to wait a year and present a course for which they in keeping with their claims.

Jon

A year is a lot of revenue for a fairway or two that still needs to take shape.

The areas are clearly not so small that they wouldn't affect play or be an eyesore. And sodding entire areas is not cheap or in keeping with the seeding of the rest of the fairway area. And it's not as though perennial rye is foreign to links courses. It just so happens that it can be dealt with so much quicker and easier now.

I'm not saying it was the best approach but it's one we're looking at also and I'd like to know if there is any significant downside other than the one I mentioned.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,

if the areas were so small then why seed them with an unsuitable strain? Surely they would either have little effect on the play and if they did, they could be sodded. Also from what understand it was the general condition that was poor not small areas seed with rye. I would suggest that it has been opened too early given the greenfee cost and hype. They would have been better advised to wait a year and present a course for which they in keeping with their claims.

Jon

A year is a lot of revenue for a fairway or two that still needs to take shape.

The areas are clearly not so small that they wouldn't affect play or be an eyesore. And sodding entire areas is not cheap or in keeping with the seeding of the rest of the fairway area. And it's not as though perennial rye is foreign to links courses. It just so happens that it can be dealt with so much quicker and easier now.

I'm not saying it was the best approach but it's one we're looking at also and I'd like to know if there is any significant downside other than the one I mentioned.

Ally,

seems to me your trying to justify using rye grass yourself rather than anything else. You need to take into account your own situation into account, what the money people want/expect and the climate. You do get rye grass on links courses but it is definitely treated as a weed to be eradicated so it seem counterproductive to introduce something like it.

In the case of Trump's course it just seems to me that the amount of hype about how incredible the course will be is not matched by the commitment. The grow-in time has not been long enough and trying to force it through any method will always jump up and bite you in the end. It has been put forward a the 'greatest links ever' and has a price tag to match yet does the product live up to this???

I would also suggest that an organisation that has made such a big deal about the look of its neighbours and possible wind-farms should at least make sure that their own house is in order first. As to the finance I think that the Trump organisation could take the small financial hit.
It would be a shame to tarnish the reputation of such a high profile project as this but the more I see and learn about this project both on and off this site the shoddier it seems to become

Jon

[Niall C]

Niall - other way round: turfed greens and approaches, seeded fairways. Fairways need to mature, but they have stored up pretty long term troubles by overseeing in on or two places (eg ninth fairway) with perennial ryegrass, presumably because they were desperate for coverage before opening day.

I agree the tenth doesn't work - I can see no reason why anyone would ever play for the right fairway, and the bottleneck on the left fairway basically forces you not to hit driver off the tee, odd for a par five.

I don't mind the last, except that tee is much too elevated. You have a 650 yard hole with 18 bunkers, and yet it looks small and insignificant from the tee, because you're so far up.

Lots of good holes though - first green excellent, second hole super, etc. Will be really good when it matures

Adam,

Just shows what I know ! In that case they have now turfed areas that were seeded. Either way the fairways are going to take quite a bit of time to mature I would have thought.

I agree about the elevated tees and the greens, excellent internal contours however the amount of surrounding swales was way overdone for my taste.

Niall

[Niall C]

Brian

I played off the whites although don't ask me which one of the six tees the whites were set up for for the day. I was playing with Mike Whitaker so they gave us a couple of caddies who had been told to give us the guided tour, therefore we had a look at quite a few of the tiger tees including the two on top of the largest dunes (the 14th(?) and 18th) where we hit a couple of drives.

With regards to the 10th, my recollection is that the water hazard was visible from the tee, and that to hit the right hand fairway we would have had to hit at a fairly oblique angle to the "normal" line of play to the left.

Ally

I can only imagine the right hand fairway on the 10th will be used by the pros playing off the back tees and who have the length to go for the green in two. Probably looked good on plan but not so good in the flesh. Just with regards to the bunkering, others I think have mentioned the montonous shaping of them which I fully agree. In the old days the used to build a course and then put the bunkers in afterwards, I can't help thinking in this case they could do it the other way round and start taking out quite a few bunkers once they've let the course settle down a bit.

Case in point is the 3 bunkers at the base of the giant dune on the right to the approach of the 10th. They look pretty stupid and puny in comparison to the dune that they front.

Niall

[Niall C]

Niall,

Do you think he opened it prematurely in order to catch the end of this year's summer season ?

Co-incidently, I ran into Donald at a wedding we attended last Saturday night.
We were seated next to each other during the ceremony.
After the ceremony and during the reception we discussed the course, and the permitting processes that he had to go through or get around in order to bring the course to fruition.

I sensed a strong committment on his part to do whatever it takes to improve and elevate the course to it's fullest potential.
Whether that takes a few months or a few years didn't seem to matter.
He's committed to improving that course.

I believe that there's a good chance that it will be awarded the Scottish Open and a future Ryder Cup.

As beautiful as Melania looks in photos, she's far more stunning in person.
The terms "Breath taking" and "Riveting" come to mind.
She's both elegant and gorgeous and I would prefer talking to and about her.

I told Donald that I thought alot of the criticism of the course would never have reared it's head had his name been Mike Keiser.
I believe that he agreed.

 

Patrick

In comparison to other courses I've played when they first opened eg. Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Craigielaw etc, its in pretty rough condition but then its had a fair bit of play since it opened and they are closing it down for the winter. From memory the other courses mentioned gave themselves a good bit longer to mature before opening.

Is it worth the money in its present condition ? Definitely not. Why did he open it so soon, no idea but I suspect he wanted to keep the momentum going as he has created a lot of hype. And while I'm sure he will keep puting money into it, I can't imagine there's much left to do that would make any difference to the basic design of the course but as I say it will get a lot better as the condition improves. At the moment I doubt its in the top 5 in Aberdeen let alone the best in the world, and I don't mean that as a glib remark. Anyone who rates it highly it doing so on the basis of the design and its potential to mature, not on the basis of what it is at the moment.

If I was to guess where it will rank when it matures, I would suggest that it will be second tier rather than top tier (ie top 5 in UK). It is a very solid design without some outstanding bits such as the internal green contours however the big weakness for me, believe it or not, was the site. Playing through levelled fairways flanked by dune sytems got a bit samey after a while. Like Adam, I'm not that enamoured by drop shot tee shots but overall its a pretty solid effort.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

if the areas were so small then why seed them with an unsuitable strain? Surely they would either have little effect on the play and if they did, they could be sodded. Also from what understand it was the general condition that was poor not small areas seed with rye. I would suggest that it has been opened too early given the greenfee cost and hype. They would have been better advised to wait a year and present a course for which they in keeping with their claims.

Jon

A year is a lot of revenue for a fairway or two that still needs to take shape.

The areas are clearly not so small that they wouldn't affect play or be an eyesore. And sodding entire areas is not cheap or in keeping with the seeding of the rest of the fairway area. And it's not as though perennial rye is foreign to links courses. It just so happens that it can be dealt with so much quicker and easier now.

I'm not saying it was the best approach but it's one we're looking at also and I'd like to know if there is any significant downside other than the one I mentioned.

Ally,

seems to me your trying to justify using rye grass yourself rather than anything else. You need to take into account your own situation into account, what the money people want/expect and the climate. You do get rye grass on links courses but it is definitely treated as a weed to be eradicated so it seem counterproductive to introduce something like it.

In the case of Trump's course it just seems to me that the amount of hype about how incredible the course will be is not matched by the commitment. The grow-in time has not been long enough and trying to force it through any method will always jump up and bite you in the end. It has been put forward a the 'greatest links ever' and has a price tag to match yet does the product live up to this???

I would also suggest that an organisation that has made such a big deal about the look of its neighbours and possible wind-farms should at least make sure that their own house is in order first. As to the finance I think that the Trump organisation could take the small financial hit.
It would be a shame to tarnish the reputation of such a high profile project as this but the more I see and learn about this project both on and off this site the shoddier it seems to become

Jon

Jon, it's not that I'm trying to justify the use of the method myself... It's that no-one has yet given me reason to justify its non-use... Clearly it's not ideal because it's an aggressive broad leaf grass that isn't how we want our finished playing surface to look or play... But what long term problems would we be storing up rather than the need to eradicate it using artificial methods once the fescue overseeding has taken hold? Each case is indeed different but ever since Adam posted originally, I've been asking a genuine question... If there is no answer worse than that said already then the decision has been made... I'm really just looking for advice...

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,

I just don't think that planting a weed and getting rid of it is logical. Yes, fescue takes time to establish itself but it is playable quite quickly. Having said that the only disadvantage I could see is that the regime needed to establish ryegrass will lead to more desease and a slower establishment of fescue than if you don't use it.

Jon

[Tom_Doak]

Jon, it's not that I'm trying to justify the use of the method myself... It's that no-one has yet given me reason to justify its non-use... Clearly it's not ideal because it's an aggressive broad leaf grass that isn't how we want our finished playing surface to look or play... But what long term problems would we be storing up rather than the need to eradicate it using artificial methods once the fescue overseeding has taken hold? Each case is indeed different but ever since Adam posted originally, I've been asking a genuine question... If there is no answer worse than that said already then the decision has been made... I'm really just looking for advice...

Ally:

Not trying to thread-jack but I hadn't noticed this or that you were trying to do the same thing at Carne.

I'm curious who sold you on the idea, and if anyone has made it work before that you know of, or whether you are the guinea pigs for the idea?

I know that when we've tried to get grass cover with rye because we missed the planting season for bermuda, and then oversow with bermuda afterward, the results were not nearly as good as expected, because the ryegrass competed to the death.  I never expected that it could compete with bermuda, but would be surprised if it didn't compete hard with fescue, making it difficult to get a strong enough stand of fescue before eradicating the rye.  But I'd love to know if it works!

Was part of your reason to do so that you were trying to save the money that hydromulching the fairways would cost?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally,

I just don't think that planting a weed and getting rid of it is logical. Yes, fescue takes time to establish itself but it is playable quite quickly. Having said that the only disadvantage I could see is that the regime needed to establish ryegrass will lead to more desease and a slower establishment of fescue than if you don't use it.

Jon

That seems reasonable. We're not looking at big areas but they are vital areas to get the course playable... Will investigate some more... Thanks

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jon, it's not that I'm trying to justify the use of the method myself... It's that no-one has yet given me reason to justify its non-use... Clearly it's not ideal because it's an aggressive broad leaf grass that isn't how we want our finished playing surface to look or play... But what long term problems would we be storing up rather than the need to eradicate it using artificial methods once the fescue overseeding has taken hold? Each case is indeed different but ever since Adam posted originally, I've been asking a genuine question... If there is no answer worse than that said already then the decision has been made... I'm really just looking for advice...

Ally:

Not trying to thread-jack but I hadn't noticed this or that you were trying to do the same thing at Carne.

I'm curious who sold you on the idea, and if anyone has made it work before that you know of, or whether you are the guinea pigs for the idea?

I know that when we've tried to get grass cover with rye because we missed the planting season for bermuda, and then oversow with bermuda afterward, the results were not nearly as good as expected, because the ryegrass competed to the death.  I never expected that it could compete with bermuda, but would be surprised if it didn't compete hard with fescue, making it difficult to get a strong enough stand of fescue before eradicating the rye.  But I'd love to know if it works!

Was part of your reason to do so that you were trying to save the money that hydromulching the fairways would cost?

Thanks Tom... The idea is coming from in-house where frankly they have a much more in-depth knowledge of their grasses and grow-in than I do.... It does seem rather perverse to be seeding areas with a grass you don't want only to eradicate it in the future but the priority is now getting the course open... Unlike bigger budget projects, there is an understanding that the course will still be a work in progress after opening... That said, if the rye will stop a good stand of fescue from taking then it may be less of the percentage choice than I presumed.... Thanks for the help... I'll look into more...

[Mark_F]

Why wait? I'll admit it now.
and yes I'm definitely obtuse if I'm expected to understand his "marketing mantra"

Jeff,

We are all obtuse.  Patrick is probably the only person who can tell us why describing a home owner's property as "it's slumlike, it's disgusting, he lives like a pig", or describing the poor bloke as "not a man that people in Scotland should be proud of," constitutes successful marketing. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Ferguson,

Obviously you are obtuse when it comes to recognizing Trump's marketing methods, which have nothing to do with the alleged statements you cited.

You keep harping on those two alleged statements as if they're the sole and entire focus of the project.

You don't analyze and evaluate the design, features or play of the course, choosing instead to base your opinions solely on the alleged characterizations directed toward a local homeowner.

Is that how you evaluate golf courses ?

Niall,

What surprises me is that Trump understands the significance of conditioning, thus I'm surprised to hear that the conditions are less than satisfactory.

Did this Year's weather have anything to do with the conditions.

If so, I'm surprised that he didn't defer the opening.

Given normal weather patterns, how long before playing conditions are optimal ?

[Mark_F]

Obviously you are obtuse when it comes to recognizing Trump's marketing methods, which have nothing to do with the alleged statements you cited.

You keep harping on those two alleged statements as if they're the sole and entire focus of the project.

Alleged, Patrick? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk-MHQE2xPQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=78s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK4R0BRJZTs&feature=player_detailpage#t=35s

I have even gone to the effort to give you a link to the exact time the alleged comments are allegedly being made, but let me guess.  Your next response, in green ink, will be that the videos have been doctored by radical lefties that have never worked a day in their lives?

And since I am so obtuse, can you please tell me who is Trump's target market?  Given his boorishness and methods so far, I can only surmise it is people like this:
                                      

Is that how you evaluate golf courses ?

I evaluate golf courses the same way I evaluate women - if they look good and make sense I figure it might be worth trying a few holes.

I will be in Scotland in the next couple of months and would like to see the course purely out of curiosity.  Unfortunately, I don't think it will be open, and even more unfortunately, Trump seems to think that next year the course will be worth £195 to play, which is ludicrous.  Given that you and Trump are such good buddies, how about having a word with him and comping me, so I can give my honest opinion?