[Mark_Rowlinson]

This has become ridiculous!

Why has this grown to Merion proportions?

This is a moderately important golf course, that's all. It has had no opportunity to establish itself as a great golf course if it ever will become one. Please calm down!

I feel embarrassed to have posted a few photos of it if it brings out so much venom in you.

I'll go back to posting pictures of modest 9-hole courses local to me. At least they attract no venom if otherwise they attract no interest.

[Niall C]

Mark

This isn't a moderately important golf course, its the best golf course in the world. (said in an Orson Welles voice)

Patrick

Yes, you quoted Sean but then went on to interpret that quote in such a way that was clearly contrary to how it was intended. You ignored other statements from Sean that explained the context of the comment and simply chose to misconstrue it to start an argument. Doesn't exactly raise the level of debate, does it ?

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark - I don't understand - a few folks post some unguarded, honest opinions on what they see and the usual jokers like Mucci pile in with the usual divisive nonsense

In other words, "folks" are entitled to their opinions, but I'm not entitled to mine ?

- all of a sudden your sensibilities are offended by that?

 It may be time to leave GCA but if you can see beyond the Mucciness, there is some interesting debate here on the course.
So when someone disagrees with your opinion, or the opinion of others, it's not "Interesting debate", it's "Mucciness" ?

PS: If you look at the threads where all the real venom exist you will see the old familiar names. Not on this thread bar one individual who most wish would not bother contributing outside of his comfort zone but you seem to respect??

Brian, when you've contributed as much to this site, intellectually and financially, as I have, then maybe some will begin to take you seriously

Do you now pretend to speak for the majority of participants on this site ?

Maybe there are reasons why Mark respects me, reasons beyond your ability to comprehend.

Keep whining, it becomes you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

The photos remind me of Bayonne when it first opened.

The fairways looked like ribbons from certain vantage points, but in reality, they were wider than they looked.

Bayonne also enjoys good winds.

As a new course, with everything on the entire site imported, the owner had to make the course look like it had been there forever, on opening day, and as such, the fescue roughs were tall and dense.

But as time went on, the roughs thinned out and in certain areas, were cut back, making the course more enjoyable to play.

Initially, if you could find your ball, you could almost break your wrists trying to extract it from the rough.
But, again, as time went by, the rough became more manageable.

Why wouldn't Eric Bergstol want the course to evolve as it did ?
And why wouldn't Trump want his course to evolve in the same way ?

There's a reason that recently christened ships embark on shakedown cruises.
Golf courses embark on similar journeys while remaining in place.

[Mark_F]

It's like seeing photo advertisements depicting a great looking steak with side orders, but, you really won't know what it's like until you go to the restaurant and taste the steak.  Ditto golf courses.

A completely ridiculous analogy.  The steak photographed will have been one of thirty chosen for any reason other than what it tastes like, it will prepared in a manner to photograph well, and it would have been assembled by a team of people piece by piece and thus bear no relation to what you may eventually get served.  It is a simulacrum, nothing more.  

Photographs of a golf course on the other hand are snapshots of reality, especially when taken by amateurs during a round.  Trump Scotland looks like it may have a couple of interesting holes amongst all of the artificial earthmoving in front of the greens, the overblown bunkering on several holes, the manufactured green shaping and an abundance of forced carries.  

Brian, when you've contributed as much to this site, intellectually and financially, as I have, then maybe some will begin to take you seriously.

 I've never met Brian, but I reckon his contribution to this site is quite valuable.

[Howard Riefs]

Brad Klein reviews Trump's new course in Scotland. 

In a nutshell:  "There’s a lot to be impressed with..."

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/aug/23/trumps-scotland-course-greatest-almost/

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/aug/23/raters-notebook-trump-international-gl-scotland/

[Mike Nuzzo]

And if the treehouse liked nutshells we'd be fine with "a lot to be impressed with."

But I care about this too:

"more aerial golf than is the custom with links play"
"connect-the-dots feel between green and next tee is not quite there"
"effectively limiting the impact of wind"
Shaping 7 "not a lot of quirky crumple to them. Biggest limitation here is the repetitive form and appearance of the deep, revetted bunkers."
Greens 7 "Ground-game access on more than half the holes; there’s the occasional overreaching of contours and just not enough room for recovery around greens"
Par 5s "though there’s a bit too much similarity in the bunker complexes 100 yards or so short of each green. The alternatefairway on the 10th makes little sense"

Cheers Pat

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's like seeing photo advertisements depicting a great looking steak with side orders, but, you really won't know what it's like until you go to the restaurant and taste the steak.  Ditto golf courses.

A completely ridiculous analogy.  

It's a very apt analogy.
You neither know how the steak tastes or the golf course plays.

Only a fool would evaluate the play of a golf course based upon photos.

The steak photographed will have been one of thirty chosen for any reason other than what it tastes like, it will prepared in a manner to photograph well, and it would have been assembled by a team of people piece by piece and thus bear no relation to what you may eventually get served.  It is a simulacrum, nothing more.  

Photographs of a golf course on the other hand are snapshots of reality, especially when taken by amateurs during a round.

So, the steak wasn't real ?  Not part of reality ?
That's as dumb as you can get.

As to the photos of a golf course, so much is dependent upon the angle of the photos.
So much is dependent upon the single perspective that the photographer wants to depict, and certainly very little about the playability can be ascertained by viewing a photo.  

Trump Scotland looks like it may have a couple of interesting holes amongst all of the artificial earthmoving in front of the greens, the overblown bunkering on several holes, the manufactured green shaping and an abundance of forced carries.  

So that's your expert assessment, the course may have a couple of interesting holes ?  ?  ?
Amongst the "artificial earthmoving", "overblown bunkering", "manufactured green shaping" and "Abundance of forced carries" ?  ?  ?

I know several golfers who have a good eye for architecture who have played the course, and they raved about it.
And they did so after playing it for a week, not from looking at a limited number of select photos.
They experienced the ultimate reality, they played it, and found it spectacular.
One fellow stated that he ranks it in his top 5, and he's played most of the better courses.
Another fellow had similar praise, as did the third.

In addition, Brad Klein, whose intellect and opinion I greatly respect, who has seen virtually all of the great courses, gives it high praise.

But you, who has NEVER SEEN IT, claims it suffers from "artificial earthmoving", as if there's any other kind, "overblown bunkering", "manufactured green shaping" and an "abundance of forced carries".

You're a joke, as are your non-reality based opinions.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Only a fool would evaluate the play of a golf course based upon photos.

I do believe a chef could tell a lot from looking at a picture of a steak or meal, especially when the meal in question was prepared by copying from a photograph of another meal.

The same way I can tell a lot from looking at a picture of a golf course.

*all of my above statements have noting to do with Hawtree

[Patrick_Mucci]

Only a fool would evaluate the play of a golf course based upon photos.

I do believe a chef could tell a lot from looking at a picture of a steak or meal, especially when the meal in question was prepared by copying from a photograph of another meal.

How much are you willing to bet ?

I'll go one better, I bet you, or a chef, can't tell me how a  steak tastes when you're looking at it in the plate in front of you.


The same way I can tell a lot from looking at a picture of a golf course.

And, I'll let you double up.
I'll post a picture of a golf course/hole and I'll bet that you can't tell me much about how it plays.

And, I'll let you triple up, I'll bet you that Mark Ferguson can't tell you how the steak tastes or how the golf course plays.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I said tell a lot from a picture.
Sometimes enough to know whether or not one would want to eat or play the subject.

As for telling or inferring from a picture, many have been doing so correctly for the 12 years of this sites existence.

I never said it wasn't great, I said I could see dislikes in some of the pictures - which led to my opinion that it wasn't the greatest golf course in the world.
Now Brad wrote a seemingly objective article that corroborates my opinion.

I'll take my three beers please, assuming the standard bet of a beer.
Cheers Pat

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Recently I was invited to a Club's evening function.

I ordered a steak, medium-rare, string beans and a baked potato.

When the food arrived, it looked great, unfortunately, when I went to eat it, it was almost inedible.
It was horrible.  I've had better hockey pucks.  But the string beans and baked potato were tasty and overall the meal was great for my diet.

Perhaps, if i had had three beers prior to dinner, the steak might have tasted better, but I doubt it.

I'll buy you three, or as many beers as you'd like.

Do you notice, that as you drink more beer, that everything starts to taste the same........... like beer

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you Pat
Having a beer or three with you again would be great.
I wish you only great and healthy meals in the future.

Why would you eat at a place that doesn't loose too much money only because it forces 350 golfers to eat there?
I'd rather eat at a restaurant and play golf at a club.
But I also wouldn't ask my barber to examine my x-rays.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I've posed that question to dozens of board members at various clubs.

I think that the concept of a "minimum" is counter productive.

It rewards overuse and penalizes underuse, irrespective of the quality of the product.

It allows the product to be mediocre or worse, with no adverse consequences for the producer of the product.

But, I was a guest in a social setting, and as such had no choice.

At a club I'm very familiar with, the more meals we served, the more money we lost.
So, I said, let's serve less meals.
The response, "we can't do that"
To which I always responded, "Why not ?"
I've yet to receive a cogent answer

[Brian_Ewen]

And if the treehouse liked nutshells we'd be fine with "a lot to be impressed with."

But I care about this too:

"more aerial golf than is the custom with links play"
"connect-the-dots feel between green and next tee is not quite there"
"effectively limiting the impact of wind"
Shaping 7 "not a lot of quirky crumple to them. Biggest limitation here is the repetitive form and appearance of the deep, revetted bunkers."
Greens 7 "Ground-game access on more than half the holes; there’s the occasional overreaching of contours and just not enough room for recovery around greens"
Par 5s "though there’s a bit too much similarity in the bunker complexes 100 yards or so short of each green. The alternatefairway on the 10th makes little sense"

Well I have played the course, and I think some of those are very valid points IMO.

[Mark_F]

So, the steak wasn't real ?  Not part of reality ?
That's as dumb as you can get.

Your ignorance is staggering beyond belief Patrick.  No doubt you believe the Big Mac you buy actually looks like this:
                             

I suggest you look up the definition of simulacrum before you spout of like a typically ignorant uneducated American.

So much is dependent upon the single perspective that the photographer wants to depict, and certainly very little about the playability can be ascertained by viewing a photo.  

Really?

So that's your expert assessment, the course may have a couple of interesting holes ?  ?  ?
Amongst the "artificial earthmoving", "overblown bunkering", "manufactured green shaping" and "Abundance of forced carries" ?  ?  ?

Yes, it is.



Notice any artificial earthmoving above Patrick?

One fellow stated that he ranks it in his top 5, and he's played most of the better courses.
Another fellow had similar praise, as did the third.

Then they are either as ignorant as you are, or just as much of a Trump butt boy.

I'll go one better, I bet you, or a chef, can't tell me how a  steak tastes when you're looking at it in the plate in front of you.
And, I'll let you triple up, I'll bet you that Mark Ferguson can't tell you how the steak tastes

I can tell exactly.  I can tell by its markings what type of surface it was cooked on.  I can tell by its colour exactly how well it was sealed and whether it was done so on too high a heat. I can tell whether it was turned too many times.  I can tell by the liquid on its surface how well it was seasoned and whether it was rested long enough before being served. I can tell by the colour of the meat what the animal was fed on, whether it was dry aged or cryovacced and whether it was slaughtered correctly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

You're a joke.

Your arrogance is exceeded only by your ignorance.

Despite your claim, you can't tell what that steak will taste like.
That steak could be charred on the outside and rare on the inside and you'd never be able to know that until you cut it open.

I'll try to get someone to post some photos I select, then, let's bet on your ability to correctly analyze them.
You can choose the amount of the wager, with a set minimum.

[Brian_Ewen]

ZZzzzzzzzzzz !

[Tim Martin]

You can choose the amount of the wager, with a set minimum.

Is there a croupier on the board that would be interested in volunteering their services in an effort to keep this fair?

[Ally Mcintosh]

For what it's worth, the 5th and 8th (Mark's two last photos) are perhaps my two favourite fours on the course, both playing on more open ground... The 8th was certainly my favourite shaped green complex... Having now played the course, I know there are certain things I might liked to have seen done slightly differently but I can say that about every course I've ever seen more or less... It's all about preferences with some of the detail.... The strident naysaying on this thread is a little ridiculous... As much as the "greatest golf course in the world" claims...

[Brian_Ewen]

For what its worth .... it just saddens me that we cant have a discussion on this course and its holes ..... but to me, it just seems pointless and a waste of time.

Welcome to Golf Club Atlas 2012  

[Jon Wiggett]

For what its worth .... it just saddens me that we cant have a discussion on this course and its holes ..... but to me, it just seems pointless and a waste of time.

Welcome to Golf Club Atlas 2012  

Don't forget Brian, its not just this course there is Merion too. I think we should maybe have a playoff

Jon

[Kalen Braley]

Brian,

Its not just the Trump course.  Its any course built by any architect at any time in history that isn't favorably viewed upon by the treehouse at large.

It is indeed a bummer....

[Stephen Davis]

I agree with what has been said here. I just caught up on the previous 7 pages and I want to poke my eye balls out. That was brutal reading and disappointing.

[Brian_Ewen]

And just in case it got lost among all the shyte, lets not forget what another long time poster said ....

I feel embarrassed to have posted a few photos of it if it brings out so much venom in you.
I'll go back to posting pictures of modest 9-hole courses local to me. At least they attract no venom if otherwise they attract no interest.

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