News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #125 on: July 16, 2012, 05:12:23 PM »
The problem with Trump is, everything he does is always the "best", which is complete horse manure.  If he at least tried to be at least a little objective about things, then perhaps people would take him more seriously....

...but it doesn't matter what it is, he's always trying to upsell to the point of absurdity.  Hell he could shit in a brown paper bag and claim its the worlds greatest creme brulee and try to sell it to your mother.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #126 on: July 16, 2012, 07:13:46 PM »
Brian,

Where did you read that rubbish? That is about the most outlandish statement I've ever read. With respect, and I am one...the Catholic Church has FAR more issues on that score than the caddie ranks. There aren't that many caddies in Ireland to begin with, and any inappropriate behavior such as you infer would be down to terrible leadership/oversight of the program.

On another score, that's one country. How can you extrapolate that thought to the entire dynamic? What you state you read sounds like caddie-hater propaganda, which has fertile ground in many places. Might want to rethink that one champ. I'm in your corner and this angle seems a bit off line for your level.

Respectfully,
Kris 8)

« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 07:25:06 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #127 on: July 16, 2012, 10:58:28 PM »

Pat, JK well said. And it was being torn to shreds by you, Pat, some years ago when I made an ill-thought-through comment that has made me consider thoroughly what I write and what I say on this site. That is why I've tried to make the commentary to my photo tour as objective as possible.

As far as I know, Pat, we parted on good terms when last we encountered each other - at a filling station in New Haven after playing in an event at Yale!


Mark,

I think it was an ice cream store after we played Yale.

That was a nice day.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #128 on: July 16, 2012, 11:05:43 PM »
But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.

If this was a Mike Keiser project the detractors would be singing its praises.

Pat,

Isn't it Trump who is declaring this the best golf course in the world (or something similar)? 

Who cares what Trump says, he says that about every one of his projects, and no, the expectation should not be that the course is not in need of fine tuning on opening day.


So isn't it Trump who is creating this "unrealistic expectation"? 

No

Objective analysis should be the order of the day not reverse, negative hyperbole


Trump's over-the-top persona and hyperbole hasn't earned him much goodwill from people who are put off by such things.  Can you really blame them?  You claim Trump's boorishness and pomposity is an act for entertainment purposes; well, it's a double-edged sword.  It might help him market a TV show but it offends many.

So what ?
Does that mean you're incapable of being objective when it comes to analyzing a Trump golf course b


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #129 on: July 16, 2012, 11:16:02 PM »
Patrick

Your comments seem to be more about defending Trump personally, rather than his course, which is fine by me.

Niall,

My comments have nothing to do with Trump or his course, rather, those on this site who have been critical of the course despite never having seen it.

I don't have a problem with Trump. My issues have always centred on the idea of the course being built where it was and the politicians who allowed it to happen.

I understand your objections


Its certainly not about the quality of the course.

But others have been negative about the course without ever seeing it.


Any comments I've made about the course have been in the form of questions as to whether there was any need to use the SSSI land, and such like, addressed to those who had seen the routing which was principally Ally. The reason I spell all that out is your characterising anyone who is not praising this development from the rooftops as being totally anti every thing about the course which as others has pointed out is rubbish.
That's incorrect
My objections are not directed toward those who do not "praise the course to the rooftops" IF they've seen it, rather I object to those who are critical of the course when they've never seen it.  There's a vast distinction in the two


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #130 on: July 16, 2012, 11:21:32 PM »

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.


Patrick, It is this forum's chosen one who suggests things should be perfect, or nearly perfect out of the gate. In fairness the board is following his lead.


Really?

So Coore & Crenshaw got it wrong at Friars Head and Hidden Creek ?
Neither of those course are today as they were on opening day.

How about Sebonack ?
Any changes there after opening day ? ;D

Actions speak louder than words

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #131 on: July 17, 2012, 03:45:18 AM »

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.


Patrick, It is this forum's chosen one who suggests things should be perfect, or nearly perfect out of the gate. In fairness the board is following his lead.


Really?

So Coore & Crenshaw got it wrong at Friars Head and Hidden Creek ?
Neither of those course are today as they were on opening day.

How about Sebonack ?
Any changes there after opening day ? ;D

Actions speak louder than words


Patrick

But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?

Disclaimer - the above comment is not a slight on Trump Aberdeen's owner, architect or the course itself. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #132 on: July 17, 2012, 05:22:32 AM »
I think even Patrick would be hard pushed to argue that it isn't better to get it right the first time... But I think it's less about getting it right and more about not cutting off your nose to spite your face. In my opinion, there are numerous reasons why courses might need altered after opening... These include:

1. Time (e.g. I suspect in the Trump case, there was pressure to get open ASAP. Waiting for the dunes to fully stabilise for another year or two just to enable the roughs off the fairway to be managed properly was likely not an option)

2. Environmental / Permitting (e.g. Continuous negotiations going on at Mach Dunes regarding what is allowed to be done... A little each year)

3. Money (e.g. Revenue needed to finance works that are still desirable)

4. Site boundary change (e.g. New desirable land becomes available)

5. Design (This is the one no architect likes to admit to but most have been involved with... ala Patrick's post, almost every architect has tinkered with one of his courses after it has opened and once he sees how it plays day in, day out... This is normal(ish)... Having to change something because it has failed functionally such as grasses or softening greens is not so good but also happens)

All of the above doesn't change the fact that you aim for a finished product on opening day, especially if you care about how the early raters, reviewers are going to view it...

Ally

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #133 on: July 17, 2012, 06:26:14 AM »
Ally

I spose the tricky bit about assessing a course before its finished is that the promised changes may or may not come to pass, yet some folks "treat" the course as if its a done deal.  If I am playing a course which is taking green fees, I reckon its better to talk about whats in the ground rather than what is promised to be put in the ground.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #134 on: July 17, 2012, 07:24:13 AM »
I don't disagree with that Sean... You can't really talk about anything else...

Sometimes people could be cut a little slack for future intent though...


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #135 on: July 17, 2012, 05:12:52 PM »

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.


Patrick, It is this forum's chosen one who suggests things should be perfect, or nearly perfect out of the gate. In fairness the board is following his lead.


Really?

So Coore & Crenshaw got it wrong at Friars Head and Hidden Creek ?
Neither of those course are today as they were on opening day.

How about Sebonack ?
Any changes there after opening day ? ;D

Actions speak louder than words


Patrick

But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?

Sean,

The problem with your above statement is you're all acting as if he got it wrong, and he didn't and neither did C & C and Kenny Bakst.

Neither did Crump nor Mackenzie, Ross, AWT, Doak and others.

Tell us, who got it right the first time ?
Who designed a course so perfect that there's never been a subsequent alteration to improve the course ?

Yet, that's what you're asking/demanding from Trump

You guys are all demanding perfection on opening day and that's absurd.

What's also absurd is your implication that if he didn't get it perfect on opening day that it must automatically be deemed a flawed golf course.


Disclaimer - the above comment is not a slight on Trump Aberdeen's owner, architect or the course itself. 

Sean I understand that, yet you've never held any other course to that standard, ergo it is a slight on Trump, Hawtree, et. al.


Ciao

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #136 on: July 17, 2012, 06:16:15 PM »
Pat,

There is a big difference between perfection and a course that isn't ready to be played in normal links conditions. Mr. Trump did lay down a VERY ambitious schedule and he opened on it. You are giving him a pass on a solid opening presentation, which from accounts of a fair few of those who HAVE played it, IS PENAL.

One can spin or excuse it away anyway you like, but at the end of the day, in the stiffer wind conditions that links courses present, most players are going to get beat up. It has ZERO to do with Trump for me, it's about the current set-up. C'mon, you are as sharp as anyone on assessing courses, that track, just now, is a BEAR! The caddie staff seems to leave a bit to be desired as well.

I don't think a course should have been built there, but as Tim Martin put it, "that ship has sailed." I LOVE links golf and hope that they get the course right. It takes time. Folks DO have a right to critique a product when it first comes out. That... to me...is fair game, ESPECIALLY with the tall claims being bandied about by the principle. I actually have been around the Donald and he has always been decent to folks in my company. His bombastic nature is hard on the ears and eyes sometimes. He is...who he is.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #137 on: July 17, 2012, 11:01:24 PM »
Pat,

There is a big difference between perfection and a course that isn't ready to be played in normal links conditions. Mr. Trump did lay down a VERY ambitious schedule and he opened on it. You are giving him a pass on a solid opening presentation, which from accounts of a fair few of those who HAVE played it, IS PENAL.

Kris,

Anyone involved in major project knows and understands "on time and under budget" and all that can go wrong with schedules.
He opened when he said he would.  Are you going to criticize him for a timely opening ?
I would imagine that he weighed opening on schedule and deferring the opening date and decided to open on schedule.
Unless we know all of the issues which factored into the decision to open on schedule I don't think we should criticize opening on schedule.

The same comment could probably have been leveled at Eric Bergstol at Bayonne.
The Fescue rough was very penal, but since everything on the site was imported, the course had to be/look "mature" on opening day.
Eventually, the Fescue thinned out and was more manageable, but the reality of the situation demanded that the course look "mature" on opening day.

The nit picking, in the face of favorable reviews from credible sources, seems petty and beyond petty


One can spin or excuse it away anyway you like, but at the end of the day, in the stiffer wind conditions that links courses present, most players are going to get beat up.

But that wasn't the case on opening day, was it ?


It has ZERO to do with Trump for me, it's about the current set-up. C'mon, you are as sharp as anyone on assessing courses, that track, just now, is a BEAR! The caddie staff seems to leave a bit to be desired as well.

I don't doubt that the rough may be too penal, but didn't a number of local posters tell us how wet it's been on site this year ?
Wouldn't Mother Nature dictate growing and playing conditions

Mother Nature has an enormous influence on growing and playing conditions and I don't know that you can dictate conditions on a day in the distant future


I don't think a course should have been built there, but as Tim Martin put it, "that ship has sailed." I LOVE links golf and hope that they get the course right. It takes time.

Agreed


Folks DO have a right to critique a product when it first comes out.

We're not talkin about "rights", we're talking about "reasonableness".
It would appear, that rather than focus on the big issues, the important issues, that focus has been diverted to petty issues.


That... to me...is fair game, ESPECIALLY with the tall claims being bandied about by the principle.

There you go again, focusing on Trump, the person, and not the PRODUCT


 I actually have been around the Donald and he has always been decent to folks in my company.
His bombastic nature is hard on the ears and eyes sometimes.

Like a moth to the flame everyone is drawn to reacting to his persona and not the golf course.


He is...who he is.

That's for sure, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #138 on: July 18, 2012, 03:52:05 AM »

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.


Patrick, It is this forum's chosen one who suggests things should be perfect, or nearly perfect out of the gate. In fairness the board is following his lead.


Really?

So Coore & Crenshaw got it wrong at Friars Head and Hidden Creek ?
Neither of those course are today as they were on opening day.

How about Sebonack ?
Any changes there after opening day ? ;D

Actions speak louder than words


Patrick

But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?

Sean,

The problem with your above statement is you're all acting as if he got it wrong, and he didn't and neither did C & C and Kenny Bakst.

Neither did Crump nor Mackenzie, Ross, AWT, Doak and others.

Tell us, who got it right the first time ?
Who designed a course so perfect that there's never been a subsequent alteration to improve the course ?

Yet, that's what you're asking/demanding from Trump

You guys are all demanding perfection on opening day and that's absurd.

What's also absurd is your implication that if he didn't get it perfect on opening day that it must automatically be deemed a flawed golf course.


Disclaimer - the above comment is not a slight on Trump Aberdeen's owner, architect or the course itself.  

Sean I understand that, yet you've never held any other course to that standard, ergo it is a slight on Trump, Hawtree, et. al.


Ciao


Patrick

No, there is nothing wrong with my statement.  It is brief, on point and accurate.  The problem is your interpretation of my statement.  Read what I wrote.

I am not demanding anything from Hawtree or Trump, least of which perfection.  The course looks as good as any other highly regarded modern design recently opened in GB&I.  I asked questions about the playability of the course.  Many have said that in the conditions experienced, the course was playable for a decent player and that once things are settled the course should become a bit more user friendly. Thats fair enough.  My point simply was that if a course is open for play, I prefer to assess it based on what I see rather than what I am told will happen in the future.  

When I wrote that my comments are not a slight on Trump or Hawtree, I left no room for spiteful interpretation and meant it.  While I am less than enamoured with Trump's public persona, I don't know the man, never had any dealings with the man.  So far as Hawtree is concerned, I have a lot of time for his work and have said so on several occasions.  Its a shame there are people such as yourself who wantonly accuse folks of malicious intent with little or no evidence, but I spose that is the world we live in.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 04:41:17 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #139 on: July 18, 2012, 06:28:51 AM »
Pat,

When folks are lauding a links facility and they haven't even played it in a stiff wind yet...what does that say about the evaluations? It has been a wet year, that's why you take the time to cut those areas that are penal, yet close to where the target areas of play will be.

I didn't chastise him for opening on time, but when one does that and the presentation is wanting, there WILL BE complaints.

If you have read my other comments, the principle was NOT the focus of any of it. My closing reference to him was my attempt(that was turned into an indictment) to give my window to the man. You seem to expect folks to forget or sideline personal bias after hearing and reading constantly, with quotes from him, about how off the charts his course was going to be. When that is not quite the case...SORRY, there will be negative comments. He's a big boy. Time will tell if the product and model are viable. I hope it makes it.

Cheers,
Kris 8)

« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 07:53:35 AM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #140 on: July 18, 2012, 12:11:58 PM »

But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?

No, there is nothing wrong with my statement.  It is brief, on point and accurate.

I've quoted your statement, above, so that we don't deviate from the issue.
Your statement clearly implies that Trump/Hawtree did NOT get it right the first time.
My contention is that courses are not perfect on opening day and your criticisms are more of the nit-picking type, micro rather than macro.
 

The problem is your interpretation of my statement.  

My interpretation is accurate.
I quoted you above.
You stated words to the effect that Trump/Hawtree didn't get it right on opening day.


Read what I wrote.

I am not demanding anything from Hawtree or Trump, least of which perfection.  The course looks as good as any other highly regarded modern design recently opened in GB&I.  I asked questions about the playability of the course.  Many have said that in the conditions experienced, the course was playable for a decent player and that once things are settled the course should become a bit more user friendly. Thats fair enough.  

My point simply was that if a course is open for play, I prefer to assess it based on what I see rather than what I am told will happen in the future.

Implying that only a perfect course would meet that standard.
You never answered my question regarding which courses, on opening day, were not in need of amendments.
Would you list just five (5) such courses ?
 

When I wrote that my comments are not a slight on Trump or Hawtree, I left no room for spiteful interpretation and meant it.  While I am less than enamoured with Trump's public persona, I don't know the man, never had any dealings with the man.  So far as Hawtree is concerned, I have a lot of time for his work and have said so on several occasions.  

Its a shame there are people such as yourself who wantonly accuse folks of malicious intent with little or no evidence, but I spose that is the world we live in.

Me thinks that Brutus doth protest too much.

I asked you, what other course/s met/meets your standard of perfection on opening day ?

To date, you haven't identified any, meaning that you're holding Trump/Hawtree to a different standard, despite your protests to the contrary.


Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #141 on: July 18, 2012, 01:31:52 PM »

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.


Patrick, It is this forum's chosen one who suggests things should be perfect, or nearly perfect out of the gate. In fairness the board is following his lead.


Really?

So Coore & Crenshaw got it wrong at Friars Head and Hidden Creek ?
Neither of those course are today as they were on opening day.

How about Sebonack ?
Any changes there after opening day ? ;D

Actions speak louder than words


The other chosen one and as for Sebonack I would assert that nearly all changes were at the behest of the owner and not necessarily viewed as improvements, particularly the 14th green (that from the guy who shaped it under direct supervision of the owner).

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #142 on: July 18, 2012, 02:08:45 PM »

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.


Patrick, It is this forum's chosen one who suggests things should be perfect, or nearly perfect out of the gate. In fairness the board is following his lead.


Really?

So Coore & Crenshaw got it wrong at Friars Head and Hidden Creek ?
Neither of those course are today as they were on opening day.

How about Sebonack ?
Any changes there after opening day ? ;D

Actions speak louder than words


The other chosen one and as for Sebonack I would assert that nearly all changes were at the behest of the owner and not necessarily viewed as improvements, particularly the 14th green (that from the guy who shaped it under direct supervision of the owner).

Greg,

Aren't ALL changes at the behest of the owner ?

Hard to imagine a change to a golf course that doesn't get the owner's approval.

How about the 16th green ?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #143 on: July 18, 2012, 02:33:54 PM »
Pat, Pat: snap out of it!! We get it! I know you like the wind up but I'm genuinely interested in your initial impressions of the course from the various pics and videos posted. Do you like the look of it? Anything seem a bit off? No doubt it will need tweaks like many of the courses you listed - what course doesn't? I'm not sure I LOVE the look of the course from the pics but it does look pretty impressive - what's your view?

Brian,

My view is that I'd like to play it and that I'll reserve judgement on its merits or demerits until after I've played it.

As to how it looks in the photos, it looks appealing, but, the proof is in the tasting.

It's like seeing photo advertisements depicting a great looking steak with side orders, but, you really won't know what it's like until you go to the restaurant and taste the steak.  Ditto golf courses.


Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #144 on: July 18, 2012, 02:44:20 PM »

But, suddenly, because it's Trump, there's an unrealistic expectation that his course should be perfect the day it opened.
And because it may not be, there's ridiculous criticism or nit picking on micro issues and a disregard for the macro issues.


Patrick, It is this forum's chosen one who suggests things should be perfect, or nearly perfect out of the gate. In fairness the board is following his lead.


Really?

So Coore & Crenshaw got it wrong at Friars Head and Hidden Creek ?
Neither of those course are today as they were on opening day.

How about Sebonack ?
Any changes there after opening day ? ;D

Actions speak louder than words


The other chosen one and as for Sebonack I would assert that nearly all changes were at the behest of the owner and not necessarily viewed as improvements, particularly the 14th green (that from the guy who shaped it under direct supervision of the owner).

Greg,

Aren't ALL changes at the behest of the owner ?

Hard to imagine a change to a golf course that doesn't get the owner's approval.

How about the 16th green ?

Of course the owner must approve and pay for the changes but designers have been known to suggest changes once a course has some miles on it. In the case of Sebonack I should say that some of the changes were not only at the behest of the owner they were his concepts as well, which is obviously his right.

By the way, I am on your side in that I think tinkering over time can yield a superior product.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #145 on: July 18, 2012, 02:56:26 PM »

But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?

No, there is nothing wrong with my statement.  It is brief, on point and accurate.

I've quoted your statement, above, so that we don't deviate from the issue.
Your statement clearly implies that Trump/Hawtree did NOT get it right the first time.
My contention is that courses are not perfect on opening day and your criticisms are more of the nit-picking type, micro rather than macro.
 

The problem is your interpretation of my statement.  

My interpretation is accurate.
I quoted you above.
You stated words to the effect that Trump/Hawtree didn't get it right on opening day.


Read what I wrote.

I am not demanding anything from Hawtree or Trump, least of which perfection.  The course looks as good as any other highly regarded modern design recently opened in GB&I.  I asked questions about the playability of the course.  Many have said that in the conditions experienced, the course was playable for a decent player and that once things are settled the course should become a bit more user friendly. Thats fair enough.  

My point simply was that if a course is open for play, I prefer to assess it based on what I see rather than what I am told will happen in the future.

Implying that only a perfect course would meet that standard.
You never answered my question regarding which courses, on opening day, were not in need of amendments.
Would you list just five (5) such courses ?
 

When I wrote that my comments are not a slight on Trump or Hawtree, I left no room for spiteful interpretation and meant it.  While I am less than enamoured with Trump's public persona, I don't know the man, never had any dealings with the man.  So far as Hawtree is concerned, I have a lot of time for his work and have said so on several occasions.  

Its a shame there are people such as yourself who wantonly accuse folks of malicious intent with little or no evidence, but I spose that is the world we live in.

Me thinks that Brutus doth protest too much.

I asked you, what other course/s met/meets your standard of perfection on opening day ?

To date, you haven't identified any, meaning that you're holding Trump/Hawtree to a different standard, despite your protests to the contrary.


Pat

This is your response?  A flat out lie after I went through the effort of not once, but twice stating that my comments are not a slight on Trump or Hawtree.  At least you bothered to reread the quote, but I am not sure why because your reading comprehension seems to be of a level incapable of understanding the most basic sentences.  How you translate the quote below into an attack on Hawtree or Trump is a marvel of imagination - especially after I specifically wrote it is not.  For most people that would have left no room for interpretation, no reading between the lines, no spinning of lies, but then you are a very special case.  

"But, wouldn't you (referring to Ally) agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?"  

Nowhere in that quote do I mention or infer that Hawtree's efforts are lacking.  Nowhere previous to this quote in my discussion with Ally do I mention or imply Hawtree's work is lacking.  Nowhere do I demand perfection.  These are fabricated aspersions spewed forth by yourself.  I underscored my comment with a forthright disclaimer so my comments couldn't possibly be interpreted in the manner you suggest.  Leave it to you to invent meanings which are born of an abject nature.    Once again, for the third time, my comments were not in the least a slight on Hawtree - they were comments of a general nature - purposely not mentioning an archie to make that clear.  Anyone that knows me will tell you its not my style to degrade archies in the manner you suggest.  It would serve you well to refrain from lying, penning deceitful comments, or, as is your common approach, acting in an obtuse manner.  It doesn't in the least impress nor persuade people to buy your cock-eyed notions.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #146 on: July 18, 2012, 02:59:17 PM »
Greg,

Not all constructive suggestions come from the architect or the owner.

Many times, members and guests who have played the course come up with positive suggestions/improvements.

But, in the final analysis, if the architect and/or owner don't agree with those improvements, they rarely get implemented.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #147 on: July 18, 2012, 03:01:37 PM »
I do not care whose name is on it. I look at a course as it is if opened for play. If  not then I used my best judgement based on information available to deterined what it will be like when opened for play to make the call. Again I could care less what the name is. Frankly his name makes one think that it is almost for sure not going to be what he says it will be.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #148 on: July 18, 2012, 03:28:47 PM »

This is your response?  
A flat out lie after I went through the effort of not once, but twice stating that my comments are not a slight on Trump or Hawtree.  


I quote you, verbatim, and you tell me that's a lie.
Let me requote you so that there can be no misunderstanding.

But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?

The implication is clear, Trump/Hawtree didn't get it right the first time.
And, that's where I disagree with you.

You want perfection and you deem anything on this course that's less than perfect as a substantive blemish.
Yet, you don't hold other courses to the same standard.


At least you bothered to reread the quote, but I am not sure why because your reading comprehension seems to be of a level incapable of understanding the most basic sentences.  

I test pretty well on reading comprehension skills.
Besides, that's my line and you stole it.


How you translate the quote below into an attack on Hawtree or Trump is a marvel of imagination - especially after I specifically wrote it is not.  

"attack"  My, my but you're getting defensive.
I never stated that your comments were an attack.
What I stated was that you were nit-picking and that you were holding this course to a standard that you didn't hold other courses to.
Take your pick, Cabot Links, Friars Head, Old Macdonald, etc., etc.
I also asked you to name five (5) other courses that you held to the same "perfect" standard on opening day.
You have yet to reply to that request despite repeated requests to do so.


For most people that would have left no room for interpretation, no reading between the lines, no spinning of lies, but then you are a very special case.  

Yes, I am special.
But, you failed on numerous occassions to identify courses that you held to the same standard.
Ergo, you do have a bias despite your claims otherwise.


"But, wouldn't you (referring to Ally) agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?"  

Nowhere in that quote do I mention or infer that Hawtree's efforts are lacking.

Of course you did, it's inherent in the quote.
 

Nowhere previous to this quote in my discussion with Ally do I mention or imply Hawtree's work is lacking.  

Of course you implied it.
Let me remind you of how you implied it by requoting you again.

But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?

The inference is clear, they didn't get it right the first time.
How can you deny that inference ?


Nowhere do I demand perfection.  These are fabricated aspersions spewed forth by yourself.  

Not at all.
It's your own words, quoted above and below that clearly indicate that you're demanding perfection from Trump/Hawtree.
Perfection that you don't demand from anyone else.
Here they are again.
But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?
Again, the implication is clear, that they didn't get it right the first time, that it's a flawed golf course.
You can't deny your own words


I underscored my comment with a forthright disclaimer so my comments couldn't possibly be interpreted in the manner you suggest.

So, you make the following statement:But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?
And then, with the addition of a caveat, disclaim that statement.
Interesting technique and logic you've got there.
 

Leave it to you to invent meanings which are born of an abject nature.  

I didn't invent anything, I just took you at your word.  You stated:
But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?
Clearly indicating that they didn't get it right the first time.

Then I asked you, over and over again, to identify other courses that you held to the same standard and you've yet to reply.
Why ?
Because you can't, you've clearly held Trump's course to a different standard.
Where's your identical criticism of Old Macdonald, Cabot Links, Friars Head and Sebonack ?
 

Once again, for the third time, my comments were not in the least a slight on Hawtree -

Sure they are.
You implied that he didn't get it right the first time.
If that's not a criticism I don't know what is.

You made a statement and now want to disavow that statement.
I understand,..... it was a foolish statement


they were comments of a general nature - purposely not mentioning an archie to make that clear.  


Who else designed this course ?   Pete Dye, Fazio, C&C ?


Anyone that knows me will tell you its not my style to degrade archies in the manner you suggest.

I didn't suggest it, you stated it.  Here's your statement again:
But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?
 

It would serve you well to refrain from lying, penning deceitful comments, or, as is your common approach, acting in an obtuse manner.  
I can understand your attempt to disavow any connection to your quoted words by resorting to obfuscation, claiming that I was "lying" and "penning deceiptful comments", but the FACTS are that YOU made the following statement, indicating that Trump/Hawtree didn't get it right in the first place.
But, wouldn't you agree that it is better to get it right the first time than not?

You can call me every name in the book, it doesn't change your typed words and the implication you made


It doesn't in the least impress nor persuade people to buy your cock-eyed notions.

I think my "cock-eyed notions" concretely supported by your own words are more than persuasive ;D


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #149 on: July 18, 2012, 04:56:50 PM »
Pat

There is only one thing left to do, quote the great Mose Allison.

"Your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime."

This song has a load of pearls that you could learn from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCpekvOkwNM

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back