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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2012, 10:21:04 PM »
Steve Lapper,

Thanks for your review.

I can't wait to hear more critical comments from people who have never played the course.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2012, 10:33:52 PM »
I can't wait to hear more critical comments from people who have never played the course.

 ;D
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2012, 10:43:14 PM »
It sounds as if you, Joe and Brad were in close contact during your time there - did you notice any dissenting parties?

Who was invited who was going to dissent?

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2012, 02:46:27 AM »
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/110577-aberdonian-sinks-first-hole-in-one-at-trump-international-golf-links/

Aberdonian sinks first hole-in-one at Trump International Golf Links
12 July 2012

An Aberdeen golfer has hit the first hole-in-one on Donald Trump’s new course.

Neale Stewart, 47, struck lucky at the 16th hole on the Trump International Golf Links and received a congratulatory handshake from the US tycoon.

Seven handicapper Mr Stewart said it was his first ever hole-in-one.

Mr Stewart, from Midstocket in Aberdeen said: “It was a sweet shot that was just short of the hole and rolled in at a nice speed.

"Mr Trump congratulated me but he was winding me up about having to buy the drinks."

Mr Stewart, a member of Royal Aberdeen sank his eight iron shot at the 16th, a par three 157 yard hole.

The financial director with Bibby Offshore was playing with team-mates Graeme Sheils, Scott Milne and Leigh Howarth at an Aberdeen Grampian and Chamber of Commerce outing.

Mr Stewart said: "I ended up buying about 60 drinks at the clubhouse but I think I got off lightly because a lot of people were driving."

Although Mr Stewart said he was delighted with the strike, he found the rest of the course very challenging.

He said: "We didn't exactly burn up the course - the hole-in-one was one of the few bright spots - but it was fabulous to play.

"There's not an easy shot on the course, you've really to think it through.

"There's no respite, you can't relax, but it’s absolutely fantastic."

Trump opened his Menie Estate course, near Balmedie, on Tuesday after teeing off with Scottish Ryder Cup hero Colin Montgomerie.

The entrepreneur has predicted the course will be acclaimed as the world's greatest - and being one of the first golfers to play the track, Mr Stewart agreed that it had the potential.

He said: "I immediately put it in my top five alongside the TPC at Sawgrass, the Old Course, and Royal Aberdeen."

The course opens for the general public on Sunday.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2012, 05:37:59 AM »
Interesting comments from those that have played it. Certainly looks like they've gone for the WOW factor in a big way. Hard not to on a site like that.

Steve

As a matter of interest, how narrow were the fairways at Cruden Bay to be unplayable ?

Niall


Niall,

 The fairways were likely their usual width ( haven't been back here since 2000....played it 2x then), however their maintenance practices seem to have slimmed. Balls struck well enough to find some rough or even the edges of the the bunch were gone instantly. The density there was extreme making the course an exercise only for those willing to bring along a Norden Bombsight. We played it in 25mph and while we loved the architecture ( still fantastic), it became disappointing to strike decent shots that disappeared swiftly. As an aside, Royal Aberdeen, no less known for its narrow fairways, played infinitely better as their light rough and heather borders kept any decent shot in play. They also evidenced a clear gorse and bunch thinning program.....cheers!

Steve

Thanks for thwe comments. I play at Lossiemouth and there's no doubt the rough is heavier everywhere which is what you generally get at this time of year anyway, although maybe not as much. 25 mph winds can also be a challenge but are hardly unknown. It just seems to me an example of the variety that links golf throws up which makes it the challenge and fun that it is. Did you or any of your playing partners go down a club to control theball better and try and make sure you were in play ?

Niall

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2012, 06:07:23 AM »
It's difficult to imagine how wet and miserable a summer this one has been in Britain & Ireland.

You know Ally, I am sick of hearing thiis.

Here (NE Scotland) the summers have been pretty consistent for the last 8-10 years.

But for some reason we seem to be in denial.

The days of hard fast yellow fairways, I knew as a junior are long gone.

Not true for Ireland certainly Brian... 2006 - 2008 very wet summers... 2009 -2011 comparitively dry... 2012 very wet... Links rough gets thick when it's wet, not so much when it's dry...


Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2012, 07:29:22 AM »
I've not played the golf course yet.

There was no question this course was going to be beautiful and have arresting views. A solid golf architect should be able to route a good course with quality holes out of that ground.

The course will be/is a flat out BEAR to play in the wind. PERIOD! Especially for the average golfer. EVEN from the right tee(whatever that is?). You only have to look at the pictures of the holes and understand links golf to EASILY come to that determination. The fact that folks are mixing up tees "to compensate" for wind and direction says all that need be known to confirm that.

"The caddies didn't even look for balls"...even in a wet, tough year, and having been to Scotland numerous times, that says plenty about the off-fairway playability and earnest mentality of some of the staff. Not good.

Given the NEED to stabilize those constantly shifting dunes, it will be difficult to amend this situation. Keeping the fairway perimeter sward cut lower, which appears to be marram grass in many places, could help, but it will be time consuming and costly to maintain. Guess you might be able to spray(NICE!) growth regulator as well, at a price.

The course will be a grand, stiff test. Will the number of folks who want to pay and subject themselves to the beating be sufficient for it to become financially successful...time will tell. Could it host an OPEN? Sure. That ground, however, looks to be the type that would have the look of a Rommel panzer division having run over it once Open Championship size crowds were done swarming the dunescape. At least the rough would be down for a while.  ;D

Given what was there...the pristine beauty of that land...was/is the trade-off worthwhile. From a selfish, love links golf perspective(of which I could be guilty) it's great; from a more balanced, overall assessment, probably not.

Spare me the jobs creation and good for the game drivel. Some land should just be LEFT ALONE. In its natural state. Man DOES NOT have the right to mutilate EVERYTHING just because they can...to make money. Believing that is just shallow, and greedy thinking. Which sadly has all the planet's inhabitants in the rather precarious postion in which we find ourselves today. Both financially, AND from a healthy, global view.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2012, 07:30:08 AM »
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 09:15:15 AM by Brian_Ewen »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2012, 07:54:18 AM »
All the way through to the elevated 18th tee this course reminds me of Dismal River. I wish we could give the course 5 years to mature and see what they got. The gunch thing will work out, it always does.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2012, 07:57:01 AM »
Extraordinary...DIFFICULTY! Wow, it's even more penal than I'd viewed before. Sure, much of this posted footage is from the manimal tees, but look how tight that marram is to the green surrounds on a couple of holes shown. If your off line by a few yards...you're stuffed.


Brian,

The shifting dunes nature of the topography over that ground pretty much demands the type of characteristics marram provides. The fairway and green perimeter areas probably could be tweaked(why not from the start?), and have a more playable and easily controlled sward composition. I'm no turf expert, so perhaps some of this site's more seasoned turf campaigners could weigh in! What say ye?

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Neil White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2012, 08:17:26 AM »
That video makes the course feel well, claustrophobic.

Also, given the fact that Mr Trump wants to host tournaments on the course - where will the spectators go?  I for one wouldn't fancy traipsing over some of those dune complexes.

Neil.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2012, 09:17:45 AM »
Also, given the fact that Mr Trump wants to host tournaments on the course - where will the spectators go?  I for one wouldn't fancy traipsing over some of those dune complexes.

I said the same about Kingsbarns, but people manage.

Mark_F

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2012, 09:37:41 AM »
Very exciting news for the golf world, and for Mr. Trump, who I respect greatly as a wonderful steward of the game.

Yep, there's no doubt golf needs more stewards who charge six figure initiation fees to their clubs.  Wotta guy.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2012, 09:51:08 AM »
There's no way to judge this or any course from afar, least of all from a scorecard. The par-3s all look to be of similar range length, yet with a westerly wind one day playing from the moderate tees (6,350 or so) the four par-3s played as 9-iron (downhill, downwind); 3-metal (uphill, into a crosswind from left); 3-rescue (level, helping wind from left); 7-iron (slightly uphill, helping wind from right). Hole location wasn't an issue since I just play for green centers on links courses anyway.

There's plenty of room for a mid-handicapper from the right set of tees. I'm a 12 handicap, shot 92-93, losing two balls each round in 10-15 mph wind. This in 50-degree weather, with rain or dampness constant. Not bad, not great, but I am terrible out of steep revetted bunkers and I was in 2-3 each round.

Of course they need six separate tees if they are going to make it a strong test from the back while playable from the middle and front. Fairways are very wide, and many of them open up behind the dunes in the fairways, so that on subsequent rounds the course feels more open. Some tee shots are more demanding than others but there's enough room, on many holes a lot.  

Any talk of it being the greatest in the world is absurd. But it's a very fine course, still to be judged under different winds and with different play. As Steve Lapper (above) mentioned, they need to cut back on the little rise n front of many of the tees. They could use a little more bailout around some greens. And a few of the bunkers are just too punitive.

We kept looking at some of those wild dunes-top tees. The views are great, and if you hit the ball long and far they are needed. They vary dramatically as to angle, not just distance, and you can adjust the course accordingly to wind or play a very different course on different days with the same wind if you go to different tees. Just for kicks the last day we played the 18th from the top -- maybe 90-feet above the fairway, 651 yards long. fairway is 70 yards wide, split with a bunker complex and there's also natural marsh pond left. The hole played to a slightly helping crosswind from the right and was fine; you needed to hit three good shots but there was plenty of room to do that, though down the middle was all the trouble. To a degree that surprised me, esp. on the par-5s, you had to tack your way around these longer holes. You also had some interesting options short/long and to the side on the two short par-4s.

Give Martin Hawtree lots of credit for this one. And give Trump some credit for letting him (Hawtree) do the bulk of the work that makes this course play interestingly. If this course had another name attached to it, it would be discussed very differently. Yes, it's very expensive. That's an issue. But so are Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart. And you could raise some legitimate concerns about the environmental issues, though in fact they followed the law and managed to get permission. Overall, it's very good as a golf course.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 07:52:44 PM by Brad Klein »

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2012, 09:58:23 AM »
Thanks for your thoughts Brad.

I am hearing from several people that have played it, that its not playing like a links course, and there is no run ?

A combination of needing to grow in, and how wet its been lately, being blamed.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2012, 10:01:07 AM »
Its interesting that Shack mentioned the grass paths.  I too noticed these for the first time on a links at Lahinch.  Why aren't they used more often over stone and seashell?  

Brad, thanks for the quip, however, imo, a links has to be playable in 20-25 mph if not more.  This sort of wind will not be uncommon and should be catered for.  I am not saying Trump doesn't or does, just that 10-15 mph is not the proper test of playability for a links.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2012, 10:02:30 AM »
http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/tours-and-news/opinion/bisset/530113/trump-the-greatest-course-in-the-world.html

Trump - The greatest course in the world?
Wednesday, 11 July 2012 Fergus Bisset


Yesterday morning on the Aberdeenshire coast, Donald Trump took off his hat, cut a ribbon and struck a tee-shot to mark the opening of, what he believes may be, the greatest golf course in the world.

When I first heard of Mr Trump's mission to create the finest course on earth over the dunes north of Balmedie, I must confess I scoffed at the hyperbole. Just a supreme display of confidence from a very confident man I thought.

I was aware what an incredible stretch of coastal land he had chosen, having visited the beaches there for the odd walk/picnic when I was a youngster. But I couldn't see how a brand-new course would suddenly eclipse those exceptional and historic links we're blessed with across UK and Ireland. I'm extremely fond and proud of many of those grand old tracks and I felt somewhat protective when I heard Mr Trump's bold claims that he could surpass them in a relative trice. 

I saw the pictures, read and heard the reports on the course as it developed and these were, undoubtedly, glowing. But I couldn't help wondering if the whole thing was merely a big PR campaign: Make enough people believe this might be the greatest course in the world and it might just become it. I was interested to see for myself.

Now before going any further, I should point out my acknowledgement that the Trump project has been a controversial one. There have been environmental objections and disputes with local residents. Mr Trump has also complained about a potential offshore wind farm that would be visible from the course and has riled Alex Salmond with his criticism of the Scottish government's renewable energy policy. I'm not going to begin to debate those issues here, I'll leave that to the national press who continue to have a field day with it all.

No, when I received an invitation to the opening of the course, I wanted to approach it from a purely golfing perspective. To try and ignore the media furore and assess the place sensibly using my experience as a (reasonably) decent golfer who has played, and reviewed a, frankly embarrassing, number of top-ranked courses.

I tried to be impartial, I really did. But after the grandiose opening ceremony it was rather hard not to believe what the owner and his illustrious allies were saying.

Martin Hawtree spoke eloquently about how proud he felt to have been involved in the project. This, a man who has been responsible for the design and remodelling of many of the UK's finest courses and is respected as one of the very foremost golf course architects in the world.

Then Colin Montgomerie stood up to represent professional golfers. He wasn't shy in singing the layout's praises using words like, "fantastic," "wonderful," "a marvel..." Ok, ok, this is Monty we're talking about, I recognise he can sometimes get carried away. But he did make it clear he felt this was a course that would be welcoming a significant pro event in the near future.

That was a sentiment echoed by George O'Grady of the European Tour who said, "Great courses should have great tournaments and we, the European Tour, together with Mr Trump, will work to bring the right event to Trump International Links."


The course has clearly been built with this in mind. For a start, it can stretch to almost 7,500 yards. In the Aberdeenshire winds, this would be a monumental test. Then, fibre optic cables have been laid across the course to facilitate media coverage. Also, the course is 15 minutes drive from an international airport and there's obviously space to fit thousands of people, hospitality and media facilities around the place without too many problems.

The Ryder Cup in 2022 was being bandied about as a possible, but George O'Grady said he felt it might be too soon after 2014 for the event to return to Scotland. All arrows then, point towards the Scottish Open.

OK, so propaganda over, I had to get back down to earth before I went out to experience the course for myself. Fortunately I had to wait a little while after Mr Trump and Monty teed off, so I was able to do so while checking out the practice facilities. An inside source had told me these were fantastic, and they are.

There's an amazing, all turf, range with pyramids of gleaming TaylorMade balls as far as the eye can see. A huge expanse stretches in front of you off towards Aberdeen - into the prevailing wind it should be said. For practice fanatics, this is about as good as it gets.

There's also a superb short-game area and the putting green is just ridiculous. It's an 18 holer over about 2 acres that makes the Himalayas at St Andrews look like a walk in the park. After multiple three-putts around there, it was time to take on the course itself.

The 1st hole, a par 5, provides a relatively benign opening. Although it appears narrow from the tee, the landing area is reasonably generous. This is a feature on a number of the holes. The rolling dunes obscure sections of fairway meaning many drives are more visually intimidating than they are difficult.

It became clear very quickly that leaving the prepared surfaces was not a good idea. My drive found the right semi but my second was blocked slightly, finishing a couple of yards into the thicker stuff - lost. The wet weather has been a contributory factor and they are also keen to protect the areas recently planted with stabilising fescues. This means the rough around the course is absolutely brutal. If you stray into it, the policy must be to simply abandon it.

I quite enjoyed adopting this philosophy. For the average player, the objective around this course must be to enjoy the golfing experience rather than to try and break par. The standard scratch off the back pegs has already been set at 77 against a par of 72.

But this is OK, because the golfing experience is a phenomenal one. On almost every tee you are given that, terribly clichéd, "wow factor." I only use the phrase because I did find myself repeatedly saying it as I made my way round.

I'll summarise the loudest wows:

- On the par-3 3rd when I approached the green and the dunes opened out to reveal the beach, right there, just yards from the putting surface. It stretches out towards the sea and, as I stood admiring the vista, a woman on a horse rode into view and on into the distance. The proximity of beach to green here is one of the most stunning features I've ever seen on a golf hole.

- On the tee of the par-5 4th. Blairton Burn runs all up the right side with dunes down the left, the green raises above a swarm of angry looking bunkers with fall away areas short and right. A great hole.

- On the tee of the par-3 6th. An elevated tee to an elevated green, set in a scoop between the dunes. A grassy path (these weave their way elegantly throughout the course) leads up to the putting surface with one cavernous bunker to the right and then a drop down towards the Blairton Burn beyond it. It's an attractive yet daunting prospect.

- Standing in the fairway on the par-5 10th looking up towards the distant target framed by towering sand dunes. Then, after completing that hole, climbing to the top of one of those dunes to tee off the 11th where there's a great view up the coast.

- I think, though, the most spectacular section of the course is the teeing complex for the 14th and 18th holes. These are set at either end of an incredible looking moonscape of dunes. The 14th forges north from a hugely elevated tee into a valley lined by towering sand hills. The 18th heads back to the (very) distant clubhouse with views of rolling dunes as far as the eye can see.

Forgive me if I mention my finest golfing moment of the day that occurred on the 18th. It's 651 yards from the tips and I played it from there. I managed to get on with three good shots and lipped out for a birdie from six feet. A four and a half my playing partner generously said.

Given construction began only two years ago, and given the fact the weather has been monsoon-like for the last few weeks, the condition of the course was pretty impressive. There were only a very few areas where the grass was thin and all of the greens had excellent coverage. They were a little slow yesterday because of the wet weather, but certainly very true. Obviously this is a links, but it's not playing like one at the moment owing to the recent weather. The ball was stopping pretty quickly yesterday and it will be interesting to see how differently the layout plays after a dry spell.

Something that was obvious despite the unusually wet conditions was how naturally the layout runs through the terrain. Martin Hawtree was keen that this should be the case and that minimal earth should be moved. This seems to have been achieved effectively and there are very few points where anything appears artificial.

There are a great variety of green complexes, each reflecting the difficulty of the hole it's on. For example: the short par-4 7th is driveable with the wind behind and the green is small with run off areas on three sides. Then, the next hole is a monster par-4 of 500 yards, slightly uphill. The green here is sprawling and forgiving.

The front nine is the more challenging of the two, although the wind was opposite from prevailing yesterday so: into on the run out when it will normally be with. But the back nine is more forgiving I think, with wider fairways and less ominously encroaching sections of rough. This was something of a relief as, by the time I made it to the final stretch of holes, my bag was considerably lighter than when I set out. At one stage I feared there could be a "Tin-Cup," "one ball left," scenario.

In summary, I would say this is a spectacular and highly challenging golf course with a wonderfully eclectic section of holes set within dune land that is unlike anything else in the UK. The views across the links and the beach from the towering sand hills are fabulous and there's suitable "wow factor" to satisfy the most thrill seeking golfers.

Is it the greatest golf course in the world? I couldn't possibly say at this stage. It does need to bed in a little and I'd like to see how it plays when the ground is firm and the wind is blowing a touch harder. There's no questioning the quality of the design or the terrain over which it travels and, taking that as the starting point, there's enormous potential.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2012, 10:15:41 AM »
Of course they need six separate tees ...

If this course had another name attached to it, it would be discussed very differently.


Brad:

I don't remember you recommending six sets of tees for any other course.

As to the latter quote, did you mean Hawtree's name, or Trump's?  If you meant Hawtree, why?  Isn't it your job to be neutral about who the architect is?  The main reason that so many golfers are biased in favor of one architect or another is because golf writers and magazine rankings have spent so much time in their reviews talking about who the architect is, instead of what the course offers.  Still, the constant refrain that courses by anyone but the five or six biggest-name architects "would be discussed very differently" if their designers were better known, is getting pretty lame.  It is just a vague implication that the course is really better than others think, without going out on a limb and actually saying where one thinks it stands.

P.S. to Mr. Bisset's review, above:  I wonder if he would have been able to state that it was the greatest course in the world more conclusively if he had completely run out of balls, instead of not quite?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 10:20:05 AM by Tom_Doak »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2012, 10:25:40 AM »
This issue would be easily solved by the return of the runway tee - or the uni-tee if you prefer.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2012, 10:55:35 AM »
Tom, like anyone else (I hope), my views evolve as I learn. I don't normally think six sets of tees is a good idea, but if you are trying to serve differently skilled golfers on a site where you have relatively small platforms on elevated, varied terrain in the face of a lot of wind then it might make more sense there than on an open site with relatively modest or level terrain for the teeing areas.

I think the way the game has evolved the last 20 years because of equipment, USGA rulings, and the nature of peak performing athletes that it's harder than ever to create a golf course for a wide range of players. Maybe you could have built a course there for that range of players with four sets of tees. But because the tees are on such different angles and places places you don't see them and so you don't feel like you're on one of the broad Midwestern courses where you have six tee markers on six platforms all in a row. That's what I hate more than anything about multiple tees, when they are all aligned in a row and all color coded and neatly stacked.

By the way, Tom, I am being neutral about the name. I was arguing that others are judging it negatively in large because at the outset it's a Trump project. So my point is that if you judge the golf course on its own terms you are better off. I don't mean that it's any better because it's associated with Hawtree's name either. My point is that he is the designer of record more than Trump was, and so associating that course with Trump is misleading, even if it's big part of their whole marketing plan -- another point where I disagree their strategy. This has nothing to do with 5 or 6 big names, just as it has nothing to do with the fact that some people on this site are smitten by it being a Doak or a Hanse course. i think all of that is nonsense, which is why in my own reviews I try to focus on the course and the land. I think for way too long architects have cultivated and benefited from an "cinematic auteur" approach to golf courses that induces laziness on the part of designers and distorts an appreciation of the nature of the landforms themselves.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 07:54:31 PM by Brad Klein »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2012, 10:57:57 AM »
There's no way to judge this or any course from afar, least of all from a scorecard.
Any talk of it being the greatest in the world is absurd.
Overall, it's very good as a golf course.

Brad & Pat
I think we can judge if it is one of the greatest courses in the world from pics and a few notes since there are obvious reasons why it isn't
It looks like a great place to play otherwise
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2012, 02:05:29 PM »
Thou shalt not judge that which one has not yet played.

On the face of it, this seems a perfectly reasonable sentiment - yet I think I disagree.

First of all, I think very few are judging it, they are simply commenting and asking questions. Seems perfectly reasonable for a discussion group.

Second of all, when one throws this out there, I can't help but feel the intent is to discourage comments from those who haven't played the course, and I think that's wrong on any level and every level. As long as people are clear about their perspectives, I would much rather that everyone share his feelings, and allow each of us to judge how much weight we choose to place on the comment or criticism.

After all, even not having played the course, when I read things like this:

Criticism about the number of tees, the supposed "lack of ...chaotic fairway contours and greens surrounds" is a wee bit of nitpicking (as Joe himself admits).

it leads to the following observation:

Such criticism is not nit-picking at all, it gets at the very heart of how one views golf course architecture and how one analyses a golf course.

Likewise:

This time, Trump is completely believable. His new course is without peer.

This is as good a quote as "It's the best course of it's kind I've ever seen", reminds me of a long lost thread about how you handle commenting on a course when you don't want to offend the host. (If anyone could find that thread, it would be much appreciated.)

I plan to be there on the 23rd.

Please be as blunt in your assessment as I hope you will be. I look forward to reading it.

------

There is nothing to be gained by posters refraining from commenting.

There is everything to gain by posters commenting.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2012, 02:47:57 PM »
From pictures it doesn't seem like the fairways are super wide....are the dunes just so large that they dwarf everything else?  Would love to see some actual photos with people for perspective.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2012, 04:08:33 PM »
as far as I've heard there is only one course to be built here by Trump.

in so far as as having multiple tees, at multiple angles and distances, you inherently have multiple looks or courses per se

so Trump gets more courses with one course, which is much more efficient use of the this sacred ground

multiple tees are more maintenance

of course if you have more land then you can also get more courses, but that is not the case here....

so more tees may not look good on a card but in effect is a smart use of land for golf

I look forward to visiting Aberdeen soon

thanks
It's all about the golf!

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2012, 04:19:57 PM »
Brad,

As a fellow links golf lover that: also caddied, champions caddie golf as you do and has always respected you for that, greatly enjoys reading your many written contributions to the game over the years, and often agrees with your take on things... gotta call your 60 compression assessment on the place into question.

10-15 miles an hour...C'MON, that is a zepher sir! Hardly a fair links wind to base an evaluation of links playability...on an absolute BEAST of a track! You are a better golfer than 80% of those that will ever set foot on the place. I've seen you play. That marram grass is savage in its current presentation. I don't need to be there to touch it to see that. You seem to have gotten swept up in Trumposity mania that has infected others.

Notice you didn't dare go near Mr. Arbie's astute observation. What criteria are we using to determine the "correct tees?" Tough windy day, I'll play from 5,500. Easy, I'm back to 6800 +? I'm all for flexible set-up options, but it says something when you're are choosing to play tees according to particular wind conditions. Any links rounds I've ever played, the course had it's set-up for the day...and you give it a go. Isn't that golf?

If one is a la carting their tee game given the conditions, what does that say about the real quality of the course presentation? Caddies aren't even bothering to look for off-line balls. I know what is says for me...cruel links golf for all but the most accomplished or masochistic(of which I've often been accused of embracing). O.K., so we essentially multilated a pristine piece of ground to... MAYBE... host a professional event, even once every x years perhaps a Major, and the rest of the time impale the remainder of those who play it, save the OCCASIONAL tourist board photo day that occurs about as often as Haley's comet comes around. Can't see many wanting to play it multiple times.

The bar on this course was set in the stratosphere! Thanks to the natural beauty that it was CARVED out of, it is stunning, AND seriously flawed as a model on several levels. In any steady wind over 20 MPH, ROUTINE for a links site, this course will kick the ass out of ANY level of player...EVEN from the "right"tees. It needs MAJOR work, on multiple levels of presentation, before it is even close to becoming financially successful, AND in a class with the world's greatest courses.

Cheers,
Kris 8)



« Last Edit: July 13, 2012, 04:34:14 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

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