Trump International Golf Links

[Jon Wiggett]

I would imagine having the site's SSSI status removed would make life a lot easier for the course operators.

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/donald-trump-build-second-golf-course-scotland-despite-objections-3006952


Donald Trump to build second golf course in Scotland despite objections
President Donald Trump's company is to build a second golf course in Aberdeenshire.
By Emma O'Neill/PA
Saturday, 17th October 2020


Plans for a new 18-hole golf course were approved by Aberdeenshire Council on Friday, despite local objections.

The course is to be named MacLeod after Mr Trump's mother, Mary Anne MacLeod - who was born in the Outer Hebrides - and will be built adjacent to the current course on his Menie Estate.


The area of land had already been marked in the local development plan for two 18-hole golf courses, a resort hotel of 450 rooms, with conference centre and spa; 36 "golf villas" and 950 holiday apartments in four blocks; up to 500 houses and community facilities.

The course will share the golf house and related facilities currently serving the Menie course and will provide an additional 141 parking spaces.

However, many locals objected to the application, citing loss of public space and the impact it would have on water supply, private roads and nearby estates.

Sam Lowit, Morningside Avenue, Aberdeen, said: "It is clear that the existing underperforming development is not of benefit to this area, with low attendance figures and ongoing financial losses.

"There is therefore no valid reason to extend or increase this situation and refusal of this application is the only viable route for the local authority to take in this case."


Sepa, the Scottish Environment Protective Agency, also objected to the application, saying the water management plan was inadequate and the environmental management plan was not appropriate.

Aberdeenshire council have been contacted for comment.

[Pete_Pittock]

no longer needed to read above article

[David_Tepper]

Given the Scottish government's decision to "call in"and turn down the Coul Links project (after the local authorities had approved it), it will be interesting to see what happens here next.

[John Crowley]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/donald-trump-build-second-golf-course-scotland-despite-objections-3006952


Donald Trump to build second golf course in Scotland despite objections
President Donald Trump's company is to build a second golf course in Aberdeenshire.
By Emma O'Neill/PA
Saturday, 17th October 2020


Plans for a new 18-hole golf course were approved by Aberdeenshire Council on Friday, despite local objections.

The course is to be named MacLeod after Mr Trump's mother, Mary Anne MacLeod - who was born in the Outer Hebrides - and will be built adjacent to the current course on his Menie Estate.


The area of land had already been marked in the local development plan for two 18-hole golf courses, a resort hotel of 450 rooms, with conference centre and spa; 36 "golf villas" and 950 holiday apartments in four blocks; up to 500 houses and community facilities.

The course will share the golf house and related facilities currently serving the Menie course and will provide an additional 141 parking spaces.

However, many locals objected to the application, citing loss of public space and the impact it would have on water supply, private roads and nearby estates.

Sam Lowit, Morningside Avenue, Aberdeen, said: "It is clear that the existing underperforming development is not of benefit to this area, with low attendance figures and ongoing financial losses.

"There is therefore no valid reason to extend or increase this situation and refusal of this application is the only viable route for the local authority to take in this case."


Sepa, the Scottish Environment Protective Agency, also objected to the application, saying the water management plan was inadequate and the environmental management plan was not appropriate.

Aberdeenshire council have been contacted for comment.

“Underperforming”

[Bernie Bell]

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/aberdeenshire-council-approves-second-course-at-trump-international-golf-links

[Lou_Duran]

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/aberdeenshire-council-approves-second-course-at-trump-international-golf-links

When I visited last year and spoke to the course manager, the decision to go forward had been made and preliminary approval was obtained when the first course was permitted. Perhaps there were some changes, but I got the impression that without getting close to the controversial dunes, it would be smooth sailing getting the second course built.   

[Mark Fedeli]

The only thing better than driving past one course is driving past two.

[Bernie Bell]

The only thing better than driving past one course is driving past two.

As long as you tell everyone about it.  Wouldn't want to hide your virtuous light under a bushel.   

[Mark Fedeli]

The only thing better than driving past one course is driving past two.

As long as you tell everyone about it.  Wouldn't want to hide your virtuous light under a bushel.

Isn’t that what I just did? Not giving support to the most odious among us is a virtue I’m happy to share.

[Adam Lawrence]

They have planning permission -- and Lou is right, the second course is much less environmentally controversial than the first one was -- but I doubt it will get built any time soon. Without hotel or housing, the resort is a money pit. I can't really see any good reason for increasing the losses in the short term.


OTOH with planning consent for a second course, it may be easier to dispose of the property if it comes to that.

[Sean_A]

They have planning permission -- and Lou is right, the second course is much less environmentally controversial than the first one was -- but I doubt it will get built any time soon. Without hotel or housing, the resort is a money pit. I can't really see any good reason for increasing the losses in the short term.


OTOH with planning consent for a second course, it may be easier to dispose of the property if it comes to that.

Adam

Is is detailed planning consent or outline?

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

They have planning permission -- and Lou is right, the second course is much less environmentally controversial than the first one was -- but I doubt it will get built any time soon. Without hotel or housing, the resort is a money pit. I can't really see any good reason for increasing the losses in the short term.


OTOH with planning consent for a second course, it may be easier to dispose of the property if it comes to that.

Adam


Is is detailed planning consent or outline?


Ciao

I'm not 100 per cent sure but I think it is detailed -- I believe they already had outline consent.

[Niall C]

It is full planning permission subject to conditions (which is normal).


Adam - is Martin Hawtree still on board for this one ? The reason I ask is that the application was lodged back in 2015 and IIRC Hawtree was winding down his career at that point.


Niall

[John Crowley]

What is Deutsche Bank’s current take on the project?

[Adam Lawrence]

It is full planning permission subject to conditions (which is normal).


Adam - is Martin Hawtree still on board for this one ? The reason I ask is that the application was lodged back in 2015 and IIRC Hawtree was winding down his career at that point.


Niall

I haven't heard anything either way about that, but the Hawtree firm basically no longer exists (no website, and all the associates are doing other things).

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.nature.scot/partial-denotification-foveran-links-sssi-confirmed


9 December 2020

Parts of the dunes on Foveran Links have lost their status as a nationally important protected wildlife site, after consideration of the scientific evidence by the Protected Areas Committee (PAC) of NatureScot.  The PAC concluded that, following construction of the Trump International Golf Links course on the dune system at Menie Estate, this area no longer merits being retained as part of the Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI).

PAC, acting on behalf of the NatureScot Board, took its decision following a formal consultation by NatureScot on the future status of Foveran Links SSSI and on consideration of advice from NatureScot staff, other representations and independent specialist advice.

Confirmation is not unexpected, with dialogue on potential denotification between NatureScot and landowners ongoing since 2016. The decision comes after NatureScot set up a formal 3 month stakeholder consultation period from June 2019 for stakeholders, who have been regularly advised of the process and given further opportunities to present their case before the statutory deadline of 18th December 2020.

Eileen Stuart, NatureScot’s Interim Director of Nature and Climate Change said:

“There is now no longer a reason to protect the dunes at Menie as they do not include enough of the special, natural features for which they were designated.

“Trump International Golf Links Scotland have undertaken to deliver nature conservation management on the golf course and we value the work they have done to protect the remaining rare habitats and the rare plants on their site however they no longer have sufficient scientific interest to merit special protection.”

Foveran Links SSSI was a very high quality example of a sand dune system characteristic of north east Scotland, and was of exceptional importance for the wide variety of coastal landforms and processes. The site’s notified features included its dune habitats, especially the dune slacks and pasture, and the geomorphological interest of its sand dune system, due especially to its dynamic nature.

The remaining reduced SSSI at Foveran Links will be merged with the adjacent Sands of Forvie and Ythan Estuary SSSI next year.

[Thomas Dai]

Is this the same area where the second Trump course was originally intended to be built as Foveran Links is the area north of the existing Trump course, ie the area between Trump and Newburgh GC?
atb

[Niall C]

Is this the same area where the second Trump course was originally intended to be built as Foveran Links is the area north of the existing Trump course, ie the area between Trump and Newburgh GC?atb

[Garland Bayley]

According to Wikipedia, Foveran Links include Trump International Golf Links in the southern portion of Foveran Links.

[Garland Bayley]

Page 11 of http://www.andywightman.com/docs/SNH_commrep232_menie.pdf shows the Foveran Links southern boundary to be well south of Sandend Burn which forms the northern border of Trump's Links. Best I can tell from the map there and on page 12, the Foveran Links SSSI extended south to encompass perhaps 4 or 5 holes of the back 9 of Trump Links.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-48789620 seems to show the destructions of sand dunes in the Menie Links portion of the Foveran Links SSSI. Some of the back nine is routed through the protected sand dunes of the Foveran Links SSSI shown in that article. Much of the sandy area at the base of the northern most dune seems now to be grassed for the 15th hole.

[Thomas Dai]

Finding this all a bit confusing.
Where was the second course originally supposed to be located?
And where is the second course that there’s been comments about recently planned to be located?
Atb

[Garland Bayley]

From https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/aberdeenshire-council-approves-second-course-at-trump-international-golf-links

"The MacLeod course will be built to the south and west of the original course (pictured) and will share the existing clubhouse and facilities on site. It is named after Donald Trump’s mother Mary Anne MacLeod and the layout has been designed by Martin Hawtree, the architect responsible for the development’s first course, which opened in 2012."

Which apparently would put it outside the Foveran Links SSSI. Google Earth does show a significant dune structure  south and west of the present course that could be compromised like the two dunes that were shown in the bbc article previously referenced.

[Garland Bayley]

From https://www.planetgolf.com/news/approval-for-second-trump-international-golf-course-in-scotland

"While the Coul Links project was approved by the Highland Council but overturned by the Scottish National Government, the second course at President Trump’s facility had already been approved at national level, and has now been cleared for development by the local Aberdeenshire Council. The course will be known as the MacLeod Course, named in honour of the President’s late mother."

This would seem to indicate that the course now approved for development is the same as the one originally approved before the first of the two was built.

[Thomas Dai]

Thank you Garland.
I’ve searched without success for a routing plan or spec for the recently okay’d second course but I get impression, perhaps incorrectly, that it’s not going to be built where it was originally going to be.
Curious to see one of the weblinks mention Martin Hawtree as the designer for the recently okay’s second course. I thought he’d retired?
Atb