Trump International Golf Links

[jeffwarne]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/golf/scottish-open-phil-mickelson-hails-3837183

“The holes are longer where driver is the play and the bunkers are placed properly for hitting drivers, 3‑woods and long irons off tees.

“Whereas at many of the Open Championship courses we play we end up hitting a lot of irons off tees to try to circumvent or navigate around the bunkering. They don’t have the same modern-day scale."..........

Anyone as confused by that comment as I am?

If you navigate around a bunker with an iron, presumably you simply fly it with a driver. Is Phil suggesting bunkers should not be positioned in such a way so to make players play around them, i.e. strategic bunkering?

What Phil is saying is very rarely do Tour level players have to bother with a driver on a links, and if they do the fairways are so narrow that they simply don't as it's somewhat dicey to gfigure out where the rll out will be at 350 yards.
Not defending Trump, just saying it's another reason the ball and club need reigning in as the SCALE of the game changes with modern equipment in expert's hands.
Never a good thing when modern monstrosity such as Trump is celebrated because of this (and the scale gets silly big for the rest of us as we still have to walk the holes), rather than facing the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

Fix the ball, save the classics

[Niall C]

Jeff

I think its more fundamentally about Mickelson. He's had a lot of plaudits for being design savvy however in this instance I think he's basically saying design a course round the players rather than the players dealing with what they are presented with. I mean, what would John Low and Stuart Paton think of these comments ?

Niall

[jeffwarne]

Jeff

I think its more fundamentally about Mickelson. He's had a lot of plaudits for being design savvy however in this instance I think he's basically saying design a course round the players rather than the players dealing with what they are presented with. I mean, what would John Low and Stuart Paton think of these comments ?

Niall

Well I'd also say he's got a PR angle as well.
I'm sure when most classic links were originally designed they meant for experts to hit more drivers, no?
Building new tees may lengthen them, but again the scale is off, especially with modern day fairway narrowing.
I mean fairways are 25-50% narrower than they were in the 1920 and the ball goes 10-25% farther.
One reason older players still compete well on a links is the older players can hit their driver and fairways woods the same place the younger ones choose to hit their irons-thus no separation by length and skill.

[Jim Nugent]

Never a good thing when modern monstrosity such as Trump is celebrated because of this (and the scale gets silly big for the rest of us as we still have to walk the holes), rather than facing the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

Jeff, you probably explained throughout this thread why you think Trumperdeen is a monstrosity, but I don't have the energy to go back through all 31 pages to search it.  Care to give me the Readers Digest version? 

[jeffwarne]

Monstrocity may be wrong word.
Maybe creation is a better word.
Not a swipe at Trump, a swipe that is the reality of big budget modern golf courses that are potentially going to host a tournament, and are in turn on a scale with the modern equipment and still have to be walked.
I'd put The Bridge, Trump, and even the Renaissance Club in that category.
The bigger the ball, the bigger the walk-particularly if the architect wants to capture views

[Brian_Ewen]

Its hardly the same thing Mr. Trump, but agreed, how that was allowed to be placed there, is totally beyond me.

[Jud_T]

Actually looks like a pretty good aiming point in a left to right breeze.   

[BHoover]

I find the windmill to be less distracting and obtrusive and far more natural-looking than that wild animal pelt that Trump calls a hairpiece.

[jeffwarne]

In a world where we are accustomed to seeing beautiful courses with urban backgrounds, why such a big deal over a windmill?

[Jon Wiggett]

I don't see what the problem is with the turbine. Rather that than a coal fired power station belching its stuff out.

Jon

[Sean_A]

Driving thru Scotland last year I was amazed at all the new turbines, but this is one of the least offensive. Its built in an industrial estate by the sea.  If they are going to be built, this is one of the ideal places.

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

I've said before, and this really isn't just about Trump, I find wind turbines to be majestic. I suppose our views are shaped by function as well as form. I find the very idea of an ecologically sound energy source sitting by a golf course to be harmonious with its broader surroundings. I imagine an old school industrialist dinosaur would see it differently.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've said before, and this really isn't just about Trump, I find wind turbines to be majestic. I suppose our views are shaped by function as well as form. I find the very idea of an ecologically sound energy source sitting by a golf course to be harmonious with its broader surroundings. I imagine an old school industrialist dinosaur would see it differently.

Paul,

I was talking to two fellows yesterday who are heavily involved in the energy business, at a high level.

I asked them about Nuclear energy.
One of their comments was that it's the cheapest energy to produce, once the plant is built, but, a plant hasn't been built in the U.S. in decades.

I then asked how the French have been so successful and why we couldn't emulate their nuclear energy model.

I won't bore you but the answer was essentially NIMBY and POLITICS and REGULATIONS

[Brent Carlson]

This is the first time I've agreed with Donald.  It is hideous.  Why don't they just build them up next to St. Andrews too?   

[jeffwarne]

This is the first time I've agreed with Donald.  It is hideous.  Why don't they just build them up next to St. Andrews too?   

yeah, then what's next at St. Andrews?
playing a tee shot right over a railway shed and hotel?

[Charlie_Bell]

Chalk me up as a fan of the new windmills.  Though in this case I'd like to see them painted black and white to match the flagsticks.

[Adam Lawrence]

I've said before, and this really isn't just about Trump, I find wind turbines to be majestic. I suppose our views are shaped by function as well as form. I find the very idea of an ecologically sound energy source sitting by a golf course to be harmonious with its broader surroundings. I imagine an old school industrialist dinosaur would see it differently.

Paul,

I was talking to two fellows yesterday who are heavily involved in the energy business, at a high level.

I asked them about Nuclear energy.
One of their comments was that it's the cheapest energy to produce, once the plant is built, but, a plant hasn't been built in the U.S. in decades.

I then asked how the French have been so successful and why we couldn't emulate their nuclear energy model.

I won't bore you but the answer was essentially NIMBY and POLITICS and REGULATIONS

France is a country where, essentially, central government gets what it wants. This has plenty of downsides, but it does mean that the French have, for many years, been very good at making large-scale infrastructure projects happen - the brilliant high speed rail network is probably the best example of this.

That said, nuclear power in France is on a downward trend. For some time the country has been generating around 75% of its electricity from nuclear, but a bunch of those stations are now coming towards the end of their useful lives, and there doesn't appear to be much appetite to build a pile of new ones. Energy minister Segolene Royal recently brought forward a bill that would see the nuclear component cut to 50% by 2025, with renewables rising from 15% to 40%. See http://online.wsj.com/articles/france-to-dim-its-reliance-on-nuclear-power-1403113287

[Paul Gray]

I've said before, and this really isn't just about Trump, I find wind turbines to be majestic. I suppose our views are shaped by function as well as form. I find the very idea of an ecologically sound energy source sitting by a golf course to be harmonious with its broader surroundings. I imagine an old school industrialist dinosaur would see it differently.

Paul,

I was talking to two fellows yesterday who are heavily involved in the energy business, at a high level.

I asked them about Nuclear energy.
One of their comments was that it's the cheapest energy to produce, once the plant is built, but, a plant hasn't been built in the U.S. in decades.

I then asked how the French have been so successful and why we couldn't emulate their nuclear energy model.

I won't bore you but the answer was essentially NIMBY and POLITICS and REGULATIONS

Adam clearly has greater knowledge than I regarding the numbers but I can second what he says about French government. You won't hear any argument from me when it comes to the proliferation of nuclear. Obviously that doesn't mean 100% reliance on it is ideal. Actually, two or three times a year I find myself driving through France and have done ever since I was small. The emergence of wind turbines is quite striking and, for me, a pleasant site when ploughing along a dull stretch of motorway.  

[Niall C]

Jeff

I think its more fundamentally about Mickelson. He's had a lot of plaudits for being design savvy however in this instance I think he's basically saying design a course round the players rather than the players dealing with what they are presented with. I mean, what would John Low and Stuart Paton think of these comments ?

Niall

Well I'd also say he's got a PR angle as well.
I'm sure when most classic links were originally designed they meant for experts to hit more drivers, no?
Building new tees may lengthen them, but again the scale is off, especially with modern day fairway narrowing.
I mean fairways are 25-50% narrower than they were in the 1920 and the ball goes 10-25% farther.
One reason older players still compete well on a links is the older players can hit their driver and fairways woods the same place the younger ones choose to hit their irons-thus no separation by length and skill.

Jeff

Interesting quote in the paper this morning from McIlroy who shot a new course record at Balgownie in the Scottish Open. He referred to how he had been working at controlling the ball, hitting low shots, practising 3/4 shots to take the spin off it etc. and how he was hitting a 4 iron 165 yds when it would normally be 225 yds. Not at all his natural game. He recognised he had to adapt to the course/conditions rather than expect the course to suit his normal game. Is that not the very essence of links golf ?

I also happened to be reading True Links last night and the Foreward by Watson where he writes about his links epithany at Lytham St Annes where he played a par 5 driver, 3 wood and 5 iron one day and the next he hit driver, 9 iron. At that point he realised that links golf isn't all about regulation yardages and being fair (my interpretation). Bear in mind he had won a couple of Opens at that point so Mickelson still has time to learn 

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

There are lots of windturbines on the hills immediately north of and very visible from Brora GC.

There are windturbines off the coast of Lancashire/N. Wales too, although they maybe a bit too far to be seen from Hoylake, even with the BBC's high boom camera's.

atb

[Jim Nugent]

I think Trump doesn't want to complete the Scotland project for financial reasons, and is using the windmills as a smokescreen. 

[Paul Gray]

I think Trump doesn't want to complete the Scotland project for financial reasons, and is using the windmills as a smokescreen. 

Agree about the smoke screen but suspect the reasons are far more about the lack of kudos rather than anything financial. After all, he seems to be resigned to the fact that a Trump Open Championship requires the purchase of Turnberry. Despite all the rave reviews from anyone likely to need his advertising, no one is even seriously claiming it's the best course in Aberdeen, let alone the world.
 

[Adam Lawrence]

I think Trump doesn't want to complete the Scotland project for financial reasons, and is using the windmills as a smokescreen. 

This is a common viewpoint and it's one I held for a while, but it's hard to see how it stacks up. He's spent whatever he has spent on the place already, a lot of money even if his claim of USD 100 million is hard to believe. It must be losing a lot each year. But he's on the edge of the strongest local economy in Scotland, one that's crying out for more hotel accommodation and where expensive houses sell easily. So why would he not build the hotel and/or at least some of the houses?

I expect to see some moves before too long. That might include selling some of the proposed housing land to other developers.

[Sean_A]

I expect to see some moves before too long. That might include selling some of the proposed housing land to other developers.

Si

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

There tends to be an assumption of logic associated with Trump which ignores his personality.

Megalomaniac - - A megalomaniac is a pathological egotist, that is, someone with a psychological disorder with symptoms like delusions of grandeur and an obsession with power.