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Thomas Dai

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Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #525 on: March 27, 2013, 04:25:47 PM »
Oilfields offshore from N E Scotland have names, like Forties and Brent. Wind farm developments also have names.

It has been mischievously suggested that if the wind farm development in Aberdeen Bay were given a name, perhaps it might be given a name such as Revenge or Forbes or even Toupee?

All the best.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #526 on: March 27, 2013, 04:58:16 PM »
I am one of those crazy guys who paid to play and for the record, I'm a rater. 

Regarding CB and RA members playing at Trump on a regular basis, I highly doubt that.  I played both last summer, loved them both (CB over RA) and wouldn't spend much time at Trump if I was a member at either.  Here's where I go into the club vs course rant.  There are plenty of good courses but it is hard to put together a good club.  Once you have it, you know it and hate it leave.  The people make the club, the camaraderie, the belonging to an organization where you can play the game you love with great friends.  Doubt that would happen at Trump. 

So the Sebonack's, Friars Head's, Hidden Creek's and Bayonne's of the world will be failures ?

What differentiates them from Trump Bedminster or Trump Palm Beach ?

Thomas Dai,

So the above clubs can never possess "history" ?

Sebonack, Friars Head, Hidden Creek and Bayonne are doomed because their recent introduction prevents them from possessing a "history"

What if Trump Scotland is awarded the Dunhill, Scottish Open or British Open in the years ahead ?
Will that begin to create the "history" you say is lacking ?

How can any new club, Bandon, Pacific Dunes, Sand Hills and others possess "history"

Is Sand Hills a failure because it can't possess "history" ?


Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #527 on: March 27, 2013, 05:27:01 PM »
Pat,

Thanks for this.

Forgive me, I'm not very good at understanding green writing so I'd be obliged if you could please re-phrase your post as I've attempted to read it through several times and am still not sure exactly what is the point you're trying to get at, although I imagine there's maybe a valid point somewhere within your words.

All the best.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #528 on: March 27, 2013, 05:40:23 PM »
Thomas,

One of the reasons that "Golfweek" bifurcated their rating system is that new courses could never acquire "tradition" points.

New courses are always at a disadvantage versus old courses when it comes to "history" and "tradition".  

But, does that detract from the architectural merits of a golf course ?

You seem to think so.
Your attitude is akin to "how dare that interloper introduce a golf course in our end of the world."
You seem to want to preserve the status quo and not allow any new courses to challenge the existing order.

I think differently.

I think a course should be judged on its architectural merits, alone, and not on who the developer or designer is, so obviously, we differ in our methods of assessment when it comes to golf courses.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 07:02:03 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Paul Gray

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Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #529 on: March 27, 2013, 06:58:38 PM »
Pat,

Why the reference to architecture and course ratings? Golf CLUB is currently the discussion point, not Golf COURSE.

 

In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #530 on: March 27, 2013, 07:06:15 PM »
Pat,

Why the reference to architecture and course ratings? Golf CLUB is currently the discussion point, not Golf COURSE.

Paul,

You can't be that obtuse, or can you.

How can a new club acquire instant "history" or "tradition" with it's course or it's membership ?

It can't.

And to look down one's nose because the club, course and membership are "new" when compared to established clubs is about as moronic as you can get.



Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #531 on: March 27, 2013, 10:01:36 PM »
Forgive me, I'm not very good at understanding green writing so I'd be obliged if you could please re-phrase your post as I've attempted to read it through several times and am still not sure exactly what is the point you're trying to get at, although I imagine there's maybe a valid point somewhere within your words.

Thomas, dont worry, you are not alone.

Best to just ignore.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #532 on: March 28, 2013, 06:06:25 AM »
Pat,

Why the reference to architecture and course ratings? Golf CLUB is currently the discussion point, not Golf COURSE.

Paul,

You can't be that obtuse, or can you.

How can a new club acquire instant "history" or "tradition" with it's course or it's membership ?

It can't.

And to look down one's nose because the club, course and membership are "new" when compared to established clubs is about as moronic as you can get.



Thanks for getting back on track. Relatively tame insult, by your standards, duly noted.

Firstly, it's not a matter of anyone looking down their noses, simply a reflection of the fact that any new club, by definition, doesn't possess the history which will draw many golfers in. It's no reflection on Trump that the corridors won't contain a six iron Bobby Jones once used to record an ace at the course or one of the lockers won't have Bernard Darwin's name etched on it. No amount of money being thrown at the problem will change that.

Secondly, clubs such as Trump Aberdeen are money making machines. Nothing wrong with that per se, but membership at such places is always going to involve working around the paying tourists. If Trump wants to start closing the course to visitors at the weekend and reserve the tee for ladies on a Wednesday morning then even I would applaud him, but we both know that isn't about to happen any time soon. So, if you're a golfer wishing to play competitive club golf on a Saturday and your wife wants to do likewise with the girls during the week, you have Trump, RA and CB on your doorstep, where are you likely to choose? Surely it's a no brainer (I can't make your next insult any easy to link to than that  ;D ).
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mark Pearce

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Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #533 on: March 28, 2013, 07:08:01 AM »
Paul, Pat,

Your conversation highlights to me that what we are dealing with here is a culture clash.  Historically we simply don't have experience here of these sort of top end resort courses with any sort of "club" attached.  Our private clubs tend, on the whole, to be very golf driven and to have frequent competition.  This is, I think, particularly the case in Scotland.  I'd agree that the typical Scottish club golfer, particularly one that would be able and willing to join one of the smarter private clubs would probably be happier joining RA or CB than Trump.  However, I do think there is a steady increase in golfers who don't feel as drawn to the traditional model, who don't see regular medals as that important but who want to be able to play a good course but value facilities too, who are more willing to join somewhere like Trump.  Other clubs that seem to cater to this market would include Archerfield, Renaissance and Close House.  Do Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns have memberships?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #534 on: March 28, 2013, 08:13:57 AM »
Paul,

Your use of the phrase, "No amount of money thrown at the problem will change that" puts into context your distaste for Trump and opposition to his efforts.

You also fail to understand what Mark Pearce suggested, that this is a different model, a new hybrid type of golf entity.

Doral offers a similar model although Doral has multiple courses, which is a considerable advantage.

I wonder if Seaview, Pebble Beach, Spyglass and other resorts offer "club" membership, and if so, how that fared.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #535 on: March 28, 2013, 09:02:11 AM »
Pat,

Why the reference to architecture and course ratings? Golf CLUB is currently the discussion point, not Golf COURSE.

Paul,

Americans associate CLUB memberships with a COURSE membership. More often than not the COURSE is the reason for joining, not the CLUB. When Americans say they are a member if a certain club they usually mean they are a member of a certain course. That is why this conversation about "clubs" can be confusing.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #536 on: March 28, 2013, 09:12:57 AM »
Pat,

I do think that some form of the GB&I style of semi-private membership structure will become more prominent on this side of the pond as all but the best clubs in the toniest burbs go begging for high downstroke, high dues paying members.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #537 on: March 28, 2013, 02:28:41 PM »
Jud T,

I have no doubt that the club model in the U.S. will go through at metamorphosis as the economy continues to stagnate.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #538 on: March 28, 2013, 02:58:17 PM »
Paul, Pat,

Your conversation highlights to me that what we are dealing with here is a culture clash.  Historically we simply don't have experience here of these sort of top end resort courses with any sort of "club" attached.  Our private clubs tend, on the whole, to be very golf driven and to have frequent competition.  This is, I think, particularly the case in Scotland.  I'd agree that the typical Scottish club golfer, particularly one that would be able and willing to join one of the smarter private clubs would probably be happier joining RA or CB than Trump.  However, I do think there is a steady increase in golfers who don't feel as drawn to the traditional model, who don't see regular medals as that important but who want to be able to play a good course but value facilities too, who are more willing to join somewhere like Trump.  Other clubs that seem to cater to this market would include Archerfield, Renaissance and Close House.  Do Castle Stuart and Kingsbarns have memberships?

Mark

Turnberry and Gleneagles have had member clubs attached and have done for years. I've known various folk who have been members but mainly as their second course and indeed one member of this discussion board is a member at Turnberry while a member elsewhere. I could well imagine that well heeled RA members might take up membership at Trump if available.

Niall

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #539 on: March 28, 2013, 04:41:46 PM »
Niall,

Any guess as to the size of the memberships at Turnberry and Gleneagles.

With multiple courses, Gleneagles would seem at an advantage.

It makes sense to attract local members who would enjoy greater utilization patterns versus the tourists.

I would also imagine the the course/club would benefit since the feedback from the local members would probably be more "on target" consistently, than a fleeting tourist's feedback.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #540 on: March 29, 2013, 02:52:54 AM »
Paul,

Your use of the phrase, "No amount of money thrown at the problem will change that" puts into context your distaste for Trump and opposition to his efforts.

That was never in dispute.  ;D

You also fail to understand what Mark Pearce suggested, that this is a different model, a new hybrid type of golf entity.

I'm fully aware of this. I've simply pointed out a couple of shortcomings in it.

Doral offers a similar model although Doral has multiple courses, which is a considerable advantage.

Now you're on to something. The development of the second course could well provide far greater scope for the hybrid model to succeed.

I wonder if Seaview, Pebble Beach, Spyglass and other resorts offer "club" membership, and if so, how that fared.

Your department, not mine. I'm not qualified to comment. Yes, yes, I hear you already.  ;D

« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 04:08:16 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #541 on: March 29, 2013, 04:31:36 AM »
Pat your reply 546 lists a load of high end private clubs, no real comparison with a pay and play with a small membership tag on. Sebonack created history with the first $1m joining fee!

I do love how some people try and create history with the "1st annual" or even the "2nd annual" whatever.
Cave Nil Vino

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #542 on: March 29, 2013, 09:39:00 AM »

Pat your reply 546 lists a load of high end private clubs, no real comparison with a pay and play with a small membership tag on. Sebonack created history with the first $1m joining fee!

My list of clubs had to do with establishing "history", not pay and play, which I cited with Pebble Beach and others.

Mark, actually other clubs offered 1 M joining fees long before Sebonack


I do love how some people try and create history with the "1st annual" or even the "2nd annual" whatever.

Sebonack has been awarded the U.S. Women's Open, that's a step in the right direction when it comes to establishing "history"

How else do you establish "history" if you don't host events ?

New courses have to start somewhere

« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 09:42:52 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #543 on: March 29, 2013, 09:48:36 AM »
Niall,

Any guess as to the size of the memberships at Turnberry and Gleneagles.

With multiple courses, Gleneagles would seem at an advantage.

It makes sense to attract local members who would enjoy greater utilization patterns versus the tourists.

I would also imagine the the course/club would benefit since the feedback from the local members would probably be more "on target" consistently, than a fleeting tourist's feedback.

Patrick

Not entirely sure about the exact set up at either but I do know that there are several clubs attached to Gleneagles. They also do a lot of corporate packages although I suspect that has been hit in recent years with the demise of many of the banks.

Likewise corporate membership at Turnberry. Don't know if they have just the one members club or whether there is more than one. With regards to number of members, I've no idea.

Niall

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #544 on: March 29, 2013, 11:19:50 AM »
Niall,

It would seem to me that the clubs being discussed have fixed costs and that it would be prudent to further offset them by having "memberships" in addition to tourist trade.

Jim McCann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #545 on: March 29, 2013, 04:41:49 PM »
Niall:

According to the Scottish Golf Union's website, the following five clubs are associated with Gleneagles:

Dun Ochil, Glenearn, Dun Whinny, Dunbracken Ladies and Whitemuir.

As for the Turnberry resort, looks like Turnberry and Turnberry Staff are the only two clubs based there.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #546 on: April 24, 2013, 02:29:25 PM »

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #547 on: May 04, 2013, 03:26:10 AM »
http://golfweek.com/news/2013/may/03/travel-pros-trump-links-will-shake-scottish-touris/

Travel pros: Trump Links will shake up Scottish tourism
By Martin KaufmannMay 3, 2013
ABERDEEN, Scotland –
Trump International Golf Links is a triumph of design – a bold, stirring seaside layout that already is driving more golf tourists to the Scottish Highlands. But it also is a course that will need several years for its turf conditions to mature into a fast-running links.

That is the consensus of a group of U.S. tour operators with whom I played the course to cap a recent 10-day tour across Scotland. Most of the group, all of whom are members of the North American Golf Tour Operators Alliance (www.nagtoa.com), were seeing Trump International for the first time.

"It's a huge, majestic, big-time, major course," said Bill Hogan, president of Wide World of Golf. "It's a tough go for the higher-handicappers, but for the core golfers it's going to be a home run. It really needs five or six years to grow in. But how do you pick a signature hole? You can't. There are so many signature holes."

"I thought the course was fantastic, better than I even thought it would be, and I will 100 percent tell my customers to play it," said Jason Scarth, president of Britannia Golf. "I think it will end up being one of the best links courses anywhere in the world. I think it probably needs a couple more years to mature, but you knew that going in."

That was a common theme: The layout is tremendous, but it will get even better as the linksland matures. Debbie Bussey, who runs Absolutely Golf & Travel and chairs NAGTOA, said she "was blown away by the beauty of the course." At this point, however, she said it is "very much like a parkland course stuck in sand dunes. . . . It will mature in a few years."

"It's a special course, and I think it in time it will become a very special place," said John Gosselink of Fore Seasons Golf Tours. "It will probably not in our lifetime get the true approbation of being a links course in the sense of (Royal) Dornoch and (Royal) Aberdeen, but it's a wonderful golf course that could host any tournament. . . . The grow-in conditions will take several years, at least, but I think the bones are there. It could host any championship."

While Trump Links is situated near Royal Aberdeen and Murcar Links, Ed Holofcener, president of Golf Zoo, saw some similarities with courses that are more familiar to Americans.

"It's a links course, but it reminded me a lot of the southwestern U.S. – Arizona, Las Vegas," he said. "Instead of the big, massive dunes (Trump) has, it's the mountains, the rocks, that kind of topography – some of the courses that I would describe as more canyon golf than dunes golf. But I think it's a great course."

I played in Holofcener's group at Trump Links, but didn't discuss the course with him until after the round. Ironically, though, I separately had made a similar observation to one of our playing partners, John Flannagan of Flannagan's Golf Tours, after hitting my second shot on the par-5 fourth hole. Looking up the hill toward the green, I was reminded of some of the mountainous desert courses I've seen over the years. That might reflect the impressiveness of the dunes – at times, it really does feel as though you're walking through canyons – or the fact that the rough was so brown coming off of a harsh winter. The fact that the young turf was playing more like a target course than a links underscored that perception.

Bussey and Gosselink shared a concern about pace of play. "The most important thing I'll tell (clients) is to expect 4 1/2-hour rounds, and it's a long walk from greens to tees," Bussey said.

Before playing Trump Links, our group had speculated as to how many golf balls we might lose, having heard some horror stories from others who had played it. That turned out not to be much of a problem, despite a shifting, two-club wind. The rough is penal, but the fairways tend to be quite generous.

"I decreased or eliminated a bias I had about the Trump course," said Peter Hellman of Classic Golf Tours. "I came into this thinking it was going to be very difficult, impossible to play in many regards, the type of course that you would play once and never again, and possibly something that over the years would not be on anyone's itinerary. To my surprise and delight, I found the course very playable, a lot of fun, and I'm definitely going to include it in our itineraries."

On this point, Bill Campbell of Campbell Euro Golf Tours was less sanguine.

"I was really impressed by it, but it's not ready for my clients, and it won't be for maybe four or five years," he said. "It's a difficult course. I don't think it's a course for the average golfer, the 20-handicapper. I thought the layout was fantastic, the views are awesome – probably one of the most scenic golf courses I've ever seen or played. But the conditioning is an issue. . . . It's probably going to be one of the finest golf courses in the world at some stage, but that's probably five years off."

Flannagan was among those who speculated that Trump Links might help the Highlands siphon golf tourists away from better-known destinations, such as the Ayrshire Coast.

"People want to go to Trump, and they're (also) going to play Royal Aberdeen and Cruden Bay rather than Prestwick, Troon and Turnberry," he said.

Whether that happens remains to be seen. St. Andrews is far and away Scotland's biggest draw for golf travelers, with Aberdeen among the regions queuing up to lure those who want to explore more of the country. And the quality of the lodging in the Aberdeen area appears to be catching up with the golf offerings – in part a reflection of the fact that the city is home to Scotland's oil industry.

"For the (tourism) industry, (Trump is) adding another night for sure onto the Aberdeen area," Hogan said. "If you spend three or four days in St. Andrews and three or four days in the Highlands, you have to come around here to get in Royal Aberdeen and definitely stay for a day at Trump."

"For clients, (Trump) wholeheartedly will be endorsed," said Graham Spears of Sterling Golf Tours. "I've already had clients play it. I've had more inquiries for that particular area of Scotland than any area other than St. Andrews and maybe Dornoch. It's a must-play."

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #548 on: May 04, 2013, 12:04:11 PM »
"It's a long walk from greens to tees."

"Expect 4-1/2 hour rounds."

WTF?   American golf comes to Scotland.  I'm sure golf buggies are available for hire. 

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump International Golf Links
« Reply #549 on: May 04, 2013, 01:07:47 PM »
Interesting article. I thought it was just going to be another Trump love in to start with but there were some interesting comments made lower down. I especially liked Debbie Bussey who thought the course was "very much like a parkland course stuck in sand dunes."  I thought this strange as my experience is that links courses are firmer when new and become a little more receptive with age.


Jon

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