London - cost of golf membership

[Scott Warren]

Mark ,
 For me, 13 through 18 at Hankley is a hell of a finish. On top of the likes of 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11... That's a lot of strong holes.

[Mark Chaplin]

Scott you forget the 10th 470 par 4 from the back tee, requiring a long cut off the tee and a running cut into the green to skirt the F/R/S bunker that bites into 1/2 of the green. It's a great tough hole.

Sean - Hankley is £10 more than Woking and West Hill and £10 cheaper than Worplesdon, sadly the whole area is expensive. Bar staff and waitresses will not work for £6.75ph and £15k will not get you a young greenkeeper.

[Sean_A]

Scott you forget the 10th 470 par 4 from the back tee, requiring a long cut off the tee and a running cut into the green to skirt the F/R/S bunker that bites into 1/2 of the green. It's a great tough hole.

Sean - Hankley is £10 more than Woking and West Hill and £10 cheaper than Worplesdon, sadly the whole area is expensive. Bar staff and waitresses will not work for £6.75ph and £15k will not get you a young greenkeeper.

Chappers

You forget that Woking is a proven commodity for me.  Hankley is far from that and the green fee doesn't entice.  I think Hankley's has sky rocketed these past 5 years - way beyond inflation.  You can come up with all sorts of reasons for a high green fee, but I know the bottom line is clubs will charge what it thinks it can given the amount of visitor rounds it wants to entertain...and thats fine...but for a great number of courses...not for me...and...I highly suspect not for you.

Ciao 

Ciao

[Wayne_Kozun]

I bet some of our overseas friends nash their teeth at the thought of a "steep" $3000 joining fee at a top club.

Absoutely - it is strange that for most goods and services the UK is ridiculously expensive versus North America, particularly a few years back when it was over $2.5 Canadian Dollars to the Pound.  It always seemed that the "sticker" price in the UK was the same as in Canada which meant that everything cost about 2.5X as much, including simple goods like a burger at McDonalds or a meal at a restaurant.  But the cost of a golf membership, and annual dues, is about 10-15% compared to what you would pay here in Toronto where initiations at the better clubs range from about $30-80k and annual dues are about $6-10k.

[Mark Pearce]

I hate to rub the price thing in but remember the prices discussed here are for London clubs.  I'm a member of three clubs with respective annual fees of £1200, £670 and £350.  The £350 one has two courses.  This year's BUDA is at Silloth, where fees are <£400 and Goswick, which has been mentioned here a few times recently is also <£400.  I'm pretty sure Goswick doesn't currently charge a joining fee.

[Mark Johnson]

I hate to rub the price thing in but remember the prices discussed here are for London clubs.  I'm a member of three clubs with respective annual fees of £1200, £670 and £350.  The £350 one has two courses.  This year's BUDA is at Silloth, where fees are <£400 and Goswick, which has been mentioned here a few times recently is also <£400.  I'm pretty sure Goswick doesn't currently charge a joining fee.

Ok i have to ask.

How do the finances of those clubs work?  Do they just have a ton of members who only play 6-8 times per year?   Or do they make a ton on their F&B?

I know they have an additional revenue stream from visitors, but that cant account for the huge difference.

I know of clubs with 300 members playing $6k/year and there is never an open spot on the tee sheets from May - September.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

The £350 club is Crail, which has a very large number of members (possibly 1000) many of whom are overseas or live a distance away, so outside the holiday season is not too busy. It also does well with visitor fees.  The middle club is Elie, which has a smaller membership, though again many only really visit in the summer.  In summer it is very busy but outside the holidays it is quiet.

Part of the trick is economic maintenance practices.  I think being happy with presentation slightly less than imaculate (which doesn't impact how it plays) makes a difference.  So does the fact that they're not offering any more than good golf, a bar and reasonable food.  Idon't know the economics of Silloth or Goswick, both unless densely populated areas and with less visitor play.

[Sean_A]

I hate to rub the price thing in but remember the prices discussed here are for London clubs.  I'm a member of three clubs with respective annual fees of £1200, £670 and £350.  The £350 one has two courses.  This year's BUDA is at Silloth, where fees are <£400 and Goswick, which has been mentioned here a few times recently is also <£400.  I'm pretty sure Goswick doesn't currently charge a joining fee.

Ok i have to ask.

How do the finances of those clubs work?  Do they just have a ton of members who only play 6-8 times per year?   Or do they make a ton on their F&B?

I know they have an additional revenue stream from visitors, but that cant account for the huge difference.

I know of clubs with 300 members playing $6k/year and there is never an open spot on the tee sheets from May - September.

Mark

300 members for a club in the UK is very low.  I suspect, if the club is healthy and in a reasonably populated area, that their fees would be significantly higher than £350 a year.  I think the vast majority of clubs near populated areas have fees ranging from £600 to £1100 per year.  The big name clubs near London may charge more, but still rake in considerable visitor fees which, some of, in turn is spent on keeping visitors happy with more stylish food and more money spent on maintenance.  In a way, unless a club is very successful with visitors' fees (read Sunningdale, Muirfield etc) and can somehow control the numbers or perhaps have two courses, visitor fees can be a bit of a nasty circle.  There is always give and take for the members where visitor fees are concerned.  I am not sure I would want to belong to a big name club without two courses or a very good visitor policy such as Muirfield's.  I was at Ballybunion and and Lahinch a few weeks ago and its total mayhem with visitors - not good if a member just wants a quiet game.  Even at my club (which does rely on visitor fees to a fair degree) I would be happy to pay another £100 a year to reduce visitor numbers.  I know part of the reason we are installing a new watering system is to ensure the course will be decent for visitors - that nasty circle. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - you are right, I paid full fee at Liphook last year and West Sussex this year - both because I forgot my county card  All other away golf in the last year has been as a guest.

[Mark Johnson]

Mark,

The £350 club is Crail, which has a very large number of members (possibly 1000) many of whom are overseas or live a distance away, so outside the holiday season is not too busy. It also does well with visitor fees.  The middle club is Elie, which has a smaller membership, though again many only really visit in the summer.  In summer it is very busy but outside the holidays it is quiet.

Part of the trick is economic maintenance practices.  I think being happy with presentation slightly less than imaculate (which doesn't impact how it plays) makes a difference.  So does the fact that they're not offering any more than good golf, a bar and reasonable food.  Idon't know the economics of Silloth or Goswick, both unless densely populated areas and with less visitor play.

Thanks Mark.

What is the amount of play that these courses typically get?

For instance, if you wanted to find a game for this weekend, would you have any chance at this point in the week?

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,

I would confident I could call each and get a time on each.  Crail would be busiest and a game on Balcomie might have to be in the afternoon.  Subject to competition timetables I would normally expect to get a game on Craighead within an hour of my ideal time.  Elie will be starting to get busy but I would expect to get a time near when I wanted.  At Northumberland it's the club championship qualifying tomorrow but I could roll up and play fairly soon at any time apart from busy spells in the early morning and just after lunch.

I don't know about Silloth but I would expect to be abler to call Goswick and get a game in the afternoon on either Saturday or Sunday.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Even at my club (which does rely on visitor fees to a fair degree) I would be happy to pay another £100 a year to reduce visitor numbers.  I know part of the reason we are installing a new watering system is to ensure the course will be decent for visitors - that nasty circle.  

Ciao

Most members' clubs in the UK are facing financial deficits. Costs can only be slashed so far; therefore the only way forward is to boost revenue. Competition keeps annual subscriptions low and at all but the most elite clubs joining fees are now history.

The received wisdom in the industry seems to be that golf club membership is in terminal decline and so the way forward is for clubs to attract more and more green fee visitors from the vast pool of golfing nomads - the estimated 50% of British golfers who are not members of a traditional club.

I feel that this model would spell disaster in the long run for most clubs. While a controlled flow of visitors across a course is desirable in terms of extra revenue and maintaining a public profile, if a club becomes too focussed on atrracting the visiting pound the inevitable result will be the alieation of the existing membership, who can no longer wander down at will for a quiet round with their buddies. It won't be long before members start asking themselves "Why be a member of a club at all when I can go and play where I want for £20 a round?"

Many perfectly good members' club courses near me can be played for as little as £10 a round if you know how to sweet-talk the pro.The attitude is "Something is better than nothing" - a sure sign that a business is entering a death spiral!

Club membership in the UK is fantastic value for money. Annual dues at '2nd tier' clubs like mine are generally between £600 and £1200 for unlimited golf. The well regarded Cavendish for instance, is £776 pa with no joining fee. Unfortunately the whole concept of golf club membership has been massively undersold and a whole generation of golfers prefers to pay and play. The tragedy for struggling clubs is that maintaining healthy membership levels is essential to survival.

IMO more innovative and flexible classes of membership and then selling them would be a more sustainable way forward for most clubs  than simply opening up the course to all and sundry on a pay and play basis.  Joining a golf club need be no more difficult or more of a commitment than joining a gym.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Duncan points are all what I think too. Visitors fees are as much an income as subscriptions at our course, so effectively to zero out the visitors would mean I would have to double the subscription fees. As a unit per round on every visitor green fee we make more than 4 times what a member pays, though we do have some members that just dont get their value, so doing the maths if my rounds are an 80/20 split members to visitors, and my income is 50/50 .... you fill the blanks..... but its all a compromise in allocating best times to the membership (up to 11.00 on a Sat morning etc)
I suspect B&B would be the same Sean or pretty close too, I think B&B seem to manage their affairs very well, they have got all the best bits of tradition and yet still move forward with the times and have a great web site, I dont think you would ever ring up and blag a cheapie because there is a gap in the start sheet, but I expect people try.

[Sean_A]

Duncan

What do you think happens to ex-club members?  I wouldn't have thought many would be content playing £20 courses.  Of course, they could go coupon hunting, but I wouldn't have thought that a lot of these courses (for a guy who used to belong to a club) are worth the effort to play that many times a year.  After doing the cycle and discovering the quality of these courses, what do these guys do in years 3 and forward?   I suspect many play less golf and once that happens it easy to get out of the routine and not even think about wanting to re-join a club.  I hear a lot of guys this when the go through long term injury or lose their job.  Golf is habitual, but life's circumstances can easily break that habit.  

Since I quit my local club I play about half as much as I used and don't miss it - this coming from a golf junkie!

Adrian

Yes, Burnham does it pretty well, but its still a bit crowded with "matches" and they don't block visitors out on weekend mornings.  Its the price which keeps most away.  Mind you, the 9 holer picks up quite a bit visitor play on weekends because of its price.  The club was smart to start a separate club for the 9 holer as it gives old folks a place to move down to, women an opportunity (because the big course is awfully hard on women - I think the club needs to seriously think about 5000 yard tees) and serves as a waiting room for prospective new members.  Being the best course in Somerset by a country mile places a heavy burden on the club to host.  

Ciao     

[Mark Pearce]

Sean is right.  It isn't a question of membership or playing the same amount at pay and plays.  People who give up membershiops play less and drift from the game.  Traditional members clubs are at risk.  Northumberland was, probably still is, the premium members' club in the county.  When I first moved up it had a waiting list and wasn't easy to get into.  Now it is advertising for members. 

I

[Adrian_Stiff]

Yes I agree that it is easy to get out of the habit of playing golf, injuries, job loss, for not just you but your partners as well can all contribute to 'dropping out' from golf. This bloody awfull run of weather will also produce 'golf casualties' and result in each club losing 'another few' at the end of the year. I don't know if a lot can be done about I suppose its just life, at the moment everything seems to be against golf and the economics is such that whilst some clubs are trying to hold their heads up you will get some golf clubs that will grapple for the business 'as described by George Rattery Taylor in his Doomsday Book' and those clubs will offer such cheap deals that they suck members away from other clubs. Golf has never been a war between golf clubs as there has always been plenty to go round.
Our numbers here are still good, I had a record April, May and June for visitors but record numbers have not equalled record profits, we are making a profit but its tiny. I dont know how some clubs are still afloat.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duncan

What do you think happens to ex-club members?

I'm as if not more interested in the guys who never have been club members, or those who gave up a membership when family and work commitments made it untenable but are now able and keen to play more golf again.

These to me me are the key potential customers who must be fought for by clubs. The finances of our club would be transformed by bringing in 100 new members from this demographic.  As unquestionably the best golf course in our immediate area I do not consider this to be an impossible task. We have half a million people living within 15 minutes drive of the club. It's just a matter of getting out there and selling the benefits of membership.

I obviously opened my mouth too much on this subject down the clubhouse because I have now been appointed to the marketing commitee.  

Incidentally, I've been working on a new website for the club and would welcome any comments. It's very much a work in progress but already a definite improvement on the official site.

http://reddishvalegolfclub.weebly.com/

http://rvgc.co.uk/

[Adrian_Stiff]

Duncan - Looks quite a nice website.

My only !&*$* is why would anyone want to be a member of Reddish Vale when you can play in a 4 ball for £22.50 each Peak time or £15 Off Peak...I would say Reddish Vale have done exactly the things not to attract members at £845 per year.

Membership fees should/must be based between the band of 20 - 30 times the green fee.

If you go outside those parameters, you will not gain members but you might get more green fees

Reddish vale should be a maximum of £675 or never go below £28.16.

£45 sounds fair/good price for a single round but how many play on their own £60 for a pair ie £30 could make sense but dont go cheaper for a 3 or 4 ball... £30 each is a bargain.... making it £15 will see your members jump camp and become a Pay and Player.

[Mark Pearce]

Adrian is absolutely right.  £22.50 (let alone £15) to play as a visitor is a great deterent to paying £845 for membership.

[Sean_A]

Duncan

The pricing is very weird.  First, so many different price levels suggest cheapness to me - keep things more simple.  Second, a single price?  Never heard of it and I can't understand why someone would pay £45 to go on their own when it costs £30 with a mate.  I agree with Adrian.  Reddish Vale is undersold at £30.  You may want to consider a day rate set up.  Say £40 each (maybe £45, but I think that is seriously pushing it) for up to three players for the day.  Maybe throw in food if its 4 players.  If you aren't big into food then maybe £140 for a 4ball day rate.  Not many folks will likely get the opportunity to do the day rate because of the club diary etc so often times it is essentially an 18 hole rate.  If folks do more than 18 (your course has opportunities to go out for a boozers loop) then they are probably hangin out eating and drinking. 

Ciao

[Tom Kelly]

Mark,

It may not be an option but for whats its worth I had a rather nice surprise when I went down to Liphook to pay my fees and finally join at the weekend. They have just reduced their fees for intermediates even more with the start of their new financial year. I am paying £640 all in this year and will be until I'm 29 and then £815 until 31 when a joining fee and full subs are due. The joining fee is reduced from the full joining fee depending on how long you've been a member, I expect to pay around £2000 if I'm still in the area. The website has just been updated with all the info.

It may be a touch too far out for your son with travel time being around 1 hour give or take from London, but I can't see many other courses offering as good value for money.

Cheers

Tom

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Thanks, Tom, I'll point it out to Giles. It looks as if he'll be living somewhere near London Bridge, so South or South-East of London would make sense.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thanks, Tom, I'll point it out to Giles. It looks as if he'll be living somewhere near London Bridge, so South or South-East of London would make sense.

Cheaper than the petrol he'll use.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/timesandfares/LBG/DEA/140712/1000/arr/140712/1515/dep?excludeslowertrains


I'd be happy to take him down one Sat, once he's settled.

[Mark Chaplin]

I'm "interviewing" and playing in three membership applicants in the next ten days. Tony these are all at Deal!!

[Tom Culley]

Berkhamsted is a good option for anyone living in London, it's a superb heathland course and only 35 minutes from Euston by train.