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Sam Morrow

Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2012, 12:04:53 AM »
I found a website that will hopefully answer everyone's questions. The Lawn Doctor doesn't say where he got his degree from but it's on the internet so I'm sure it's true. Plus he has a green thumb, I doubt he would misrepresent himself.

http://www.lawndoctor.com/

Ben Sims

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Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2012, 12:40:33 AM »
Patrick,

Well thankfully Pat, I wasn't around to know what fairways in the 50's and 60's were like.

Earlier in this thread you said this,
Quote
If every committee, board and membership could visit Newport and Maidstone, maybe we'd make some progress.

Sorry to beat a dead font, but
Quote
that's one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard on GCA.com.

I must ask you, really!?  That's the assertion you wish to make with regard to water usage?  Because if not for the blindingly serious tone to your post, it would be one of the more humorous--and dumb--things I have ever read on this site.  There are accepted standards in each and every industry.  Irrigating a course in Texas in a similar manner as those on Long Island or Newport, RI would be not only stupid, but worse, gross mismanagement.  Sorry, it's a fact.

You can put your hands over your ears and scream "but how did all those courses survive in the 50's and 60's" until you're blue in the face.  But this ain't 1957, Milwaukee's team ain't the Braves, cigarettes kill now just as no one thought they did then, and grass needs water now just as it needed it then.  If Super's had the ability to smartly use water the way a guy like Don Mahaffey does now way back in 1957, they would have.  
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 12:42:17 AM by Ben Sims »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2012, 04:25:58 AM »
Ben

I think you are off in right field on this one.  I think Pat (and rightfully so) is advocating minimal watering usage and perhaps even the usage of grasses which are best suited to minimal water usage (if he isn't, I am) in a given climate. 

Water is an expensive and precious commodity which shouldn't be wasted because folks can afford to waste it.  Golf has a terrible rep for wasting water (and I will bet you dimes to dollars that plenty of water is wasted).  Whether or not this is true, perception matters.  Therefore, golfers have to find ways to make it known when steps are taken to preserve water, but that starts with actually saving as much as water as is possible. 

I love the game of golf, but I would be all in for charging golf courses excess fees until they can prove they are being as responsible as is reasonably in their usage of water.  That would include using grass meant for the environment and a relatively leak free watering system

Oh, to answer the question - hell no I don't water my grass - never have no matter where I lived.  I am not about to waste money watering or applying chemicals to an area which is essentially another name for weeds.  A lawn is only good for playing on and kids don't care what the grass looks like - the ones that do make it outside these days will get on with playing regardless - always have. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2012, 09:23:20 AM »
Sean,

Your points are valid and I agree with them.  And I am surely not advocating a "devil may care" attitude towards water usage.  The problem I have is the generalized and often shortsighted statements here on GCA about agronomy.  Usually these comments are based on a disregard of the basic tenets of Koppen's Climate Classification system. 

Water conservation is going to be a huge issue going forward in golf.  But simply stating that everyone could learn something by going to two extremely prestigious clubs in the coastal northeast that I'd guess both receive less than 15K rounds/yr, is a bit naive.  It's so much more than that.

Tee shots plugging in fairways is wrong, but so is a surface that is substandard in today's industry that is both aesthetically and agronomically weak.  I think there is a happy medium between "the way it was in the 50's and 60's" and over-watered mush.   We should be having a good discussion about that ideal.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2012, 10:03:55 AM »
Sam,

Here in TX, you might have seen the commericals for http://www.savetarrantwater.com/Pages/OutdoorWateringTips.aspx

In general, the supers are right here.  For every region of the country there is daily Evapotranspiration.  Each type of grass responds differently, with warm season grasses using less of what is called "pan ET" than cool season grasses (about 60% to 80%).   Every soil has its own water capacity (measured in inches, and often around 3")  Most turf dies or goes dormant when it has less than 33% of its moisture capacity filled.

Supers in some areas can choose turf for drought tolerance (bermuda vs bent greens in the south, for example) and save 25% of water right off the bat.  They can aerate tight soils to let more moisture in.

However, for the most part, the plants need what the plants need.  We seem to be finding that moisture sensors in the soil give us a better take on how dry the turf is, and its often less than the recorded ET, which makes sense, because water doesn't evaporate out of the soil as fast as it does for the surface.  So, in that sense, some guys have been overwatering when they say they simply replace ET every night.  (typically .10-.25" per night, depending on region)  They might be able to get by with less, or water every other or third night in most areas.

The only other thing they can do is plan or take a bit of a chance on replacing less than ET (or actual soil moisture from the sensor) and hoping a weekly rain makes up the difference before the turf hits the drought or death point.  And, they can replace less than ET because the turf doesn't need to be at full field capacity, it can be as low as 33% and easily 50% in most cases (except maybe for greens) rather than 100% and do nicely.  However, at some point, reduced water gets turf down to danger levels of moisture, and if close to the edge, at that point, the super must water to full ET at night, or risk losing the grass.

Short version, managing for medium dry conditions is not an exact science!  I really don't know any supers who overwater, i.e. put 110% of ET on.  I know many who do replace ETat 100% each night, and still others who don't have the turn off features that stop the system if rain starts.  For most, several times a summer they face the question of "Do I water tonight if there is a 60% chance of rain?"  If turf is dry and they don't water, they might be in trouble, but if they do water, and it rains, they are wasting it.  What should he do?  Given they get up every morning at 4:30, I can see them staying in bed at 1AM, knowing they "should" go in and turn off the sprinklers.

And, most have antiquated irrigation systems that were designed mostly to throw as much water as possible, not conserve it.

Such is the reaons I started this post.  While every region is different, the amount of water wasted by the typical homeowner probably far outweighs what is lost by intelligent superintendents over watering their golf course.

For that matter, Pat has brought up this issue several times.  I can tell you I haven't played a truly soggy course in several years.  (I do find isolated wet areas that I believe the super could adjust sprinklers for, though)  For that reason, I wonder if this is somewhat of a myth of gca.com that modern supers aren't very knowledgable while golfers could easily do their jobs?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2012, 10:19:48 AM »
I can tell you I haven't played a truly soggy course in several years.  (I do find isolated wet areas that I believe the super could adjust sprinklers for, though)  For that reason, I wonder if this is somewhat of a myth of gca.com that modern supers aren't very knowledgable while golfers could easily do their jobs?

Very well said Jeff. 

It blows my mind how stupid most golfers think superintendents are.  By no means is the profession perfect, but I just don't see the value in folks asserting that yesteryear was better.  That we should go back to the way it was in all things.  People get giddy over the single row irrigation at PH#2 or no fairway irrigation in some courses up north.  I don't understand why.  Those are solutions that work for that environment and that course.  Irrigation is a science that 99% of people--including me--don't understand.  I wish Don would come on here and set us all straight.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2012, 10:34:57 AM »
Ben,

I, for one, will be interested to see how well that single row works out.  Frankly, I couldn't believe they wouldn't use part circles at the edges for a better separation of the sand wastes, and better coverage in the fw.  Maybe they know something I don't, but I wouldn't have considered single row there, or really anywhere.

I often get the question at my home course as to why a few areas are soggy.  My answer is that we have a 1960's system, and many areas have to be overwatered to get the right amount of water on the outer areas.  The super understands that, but his budget is the same as the 1980 super had in actual dollars, he has a  crew of 7 vs 14, and he can't sit there and hand water every little area to perfection.  If he wanted to adjust sprinklers as I suggest above, he couldn't!

Yes, irrigation is science, and some of the numbers I give above just cannot be ignored by supers.  They can be refined, of course, and moving forward, most supers will spend a lot of manhours trying to ensure less water waste.  For most, I bet their efforts will yield about 10% savings.

BTW, we reduced turf at La Costa by about 30% to save water, but in the first year, savings haven't equaled turf reduction.  Grow in demands more water of course, and the new sand based fw - also needed for drainage, haven't got enough organic in them to reduce water needs yet.  I think they will get there, but a lot of factors go into water reduction, and sometimes, as you say, its not just as easy as Pat says, as in "just turn off the damn sprinklers!".

Overall, I doubt many golfers are very knowledgeable, or sympathetic to the supers we rely on.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2012, 10:52:05 AM »
Jeff I think it depends on how healthy your grass is at the start of the season.

I have a great stand of fescue in S Indiana that is very brown right now. I am banking on the grass being dormant and returning to health with some fall rains. I think this reduces crabgrass and other weed germination IF the grass was heatlhy
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2012, 11:20:09 AM »
Never!  Of course, I live in Scotland.....
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2012, 11:21:24 AM »
Ward,

You make a good point. No doubt healthy grass reduces weeds, and proper water and fertilization are the best way to keep weeds out, rather than spray.  Driving through my neighborhood, there are all shades of green, and all are ST. Augustie/Bermuda or mixed lawns.  Mine is greener than some that have no irrigation, and almost as green as those who water every night over my once per week when it doesn't rain (maybe twice later this summer, who knows)  I believe that my regular fertilization keeps it green more than the constant watering regimen.  

 If you start figuring the entire environmental cost, too little water may add other inputs that are really worse for the environment and it all balances out somehow.

As to your healthy but dormant fescues, I guess the value judgement for golf courses would be whether that would be acceptable as playable turf! My guess is, no, at least for most courses.

As the USGA has been saying lately, brown is not the new green, less green is the new green.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2012, 11:22:20 AM »
I thought we were talking about our own lawns...

Back to the topic, if you are a true fan of firm, fast, and brown, I think you should walk the walk and apply the same philosophy to something you do have control over. Water is a precious commodity in many parts of this country. I just hate seeing that valuable resource wasted just to keep your house "pretty". You can at least argue about water usage on golf courses as they generate revenue have some utility. I don't know how one can argue about wasting water on their own lawns in "hot/dry" parts of the country.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2012, 11:24:37 AM »
Richard,

As I mentioned above, things seem to trade off.  For example, all those white rock lawns in Vegas and Palm Springs save water but also contribute to raise the nearby temperatures of the street.  Is some lawn and watering worth an few degrees in heat reduction and livability in those climates?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2012, 11:34:10 AM »
Bringing beauty into your life is only a waste if you fail to embrace it.  I walk a fine line between glee and depression so if the sight of a manicured lawn or blooming flowers edges me towards having a better day it is money well spent.  There may be no more important time in my day then that moment I am either leaving or entering my garage.  It sets the tone for both work and home.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2012, 11:37:09 AM »
JK,

You are so right.  hard to quantify, but it would be terrible to lose the lawn and garden tradition in the name of water management (at least in most areas where water shortages are rare).  Most do feel better after seeing some small bit of nature in their own back yards.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2012, 12:29:50 PM »
The problem is that is not "nature". That lawn/garden view you have is something that would be impossible without (constant) intervention by man.

It is fine to enjoy such beauty, but let's not delude ourselves to thinking that that is somehow "natural". Just admit that you like artificial (albeit organic) surroundings, that is kept artificial with considerable amount of resources that are not naturally available.

If you REALLY appreciated nature, you would plant with native species of plants with minimal interference and let the natural local echosystem take over. But that is not exactly what we are talking about, is it?

Back to the topic at hand, if you are the type who regularly water your lawns, I think you pretty much need to hand in your card for being an advocate for "brown and firm".

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2012, 12:35:41 PM »
Richard,

I'm really not sure where you're going with this line of reasoning.

Cars aren't naturally occurring, but you use one right?
Ditto for computers, houses, cell phones, clothing, TVs, appliances, furniture, etc, etc, etc.

Whereas grass and plants and trees do in fact naturally occur.  Whats the problem with pruning/manipulating their growing conditions for a more aesthetic look.  Seems a lot less evasive than what mankind is doing to the planet otherwise.

P.S.  I don't play golf on my lawn, so fast and firm is not why I grow/maintain it.  Why have a brown lawn when its not meant for golf?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 12:39:52 PM by Kalen Braley »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2012, 12:38:26 PM »
I'd love to buy the Seattle lawn sprinkler franchise.

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2012, 12:40:50 PM »
I don't recall saying cars are natural... not sure where you are going with that, Kalen.

My last sentence in the previous post state clearly what I am trying to say.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2012, 12:41:58 PM »
I don't recall saying cars are natural... not sure where you are going with that, Kalen.

My last sentence in the previous post state clearly what I am trying to say.

Rich,

I added a PS to my previous post but will include it here again.

Quote
I don't play golf on my lawn, so fast and firm is not why I grow/maintain it.  Why have a brown lawn when its not meant for golf?

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2012, 12:43:29 PM »
P.S.  I don't play golf on my lawn, so fast and firm is not why I grow/maintain it.  Why have a brown lawn when its not meant for golf?

Because the reason why golf course supers keep their courses green and lush is precisely the same reason why you keep your lawns green and lush. Why would you bash someone for doing something exactly you are doing yourself?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #70 on: July 11, 2012, 01:14:36 PM »
Richard,

I agree lawns (in most cases) aren't nature, but they are well adapted and practical ground covers that allow some human use.  As the general consensus here shows, most lawns in most climates don't need a lot of watering.  That said, they do provide benefits in non natural climates (as in my Vegas example) that might outweigh their exclusion in home use. 

I guess its a value judgement, and will concede that when Americans decided en masse on replicating the english countryside as the model miniature castle from England, that they sure weren't considering water use.  They didn't even have irrigation back then, and yet the lawns survived quite well all the way to the midwest.  And, landscapers in So Cal, the desert, and other areas did modify the norm.

Even so, I would hate to see lawns outlawed because of their benefits.  It seems like when our country decides to do something, its often in response (or over response) to a single issue.  We need to conserve water doesn't need to translate into outlawing lawns or golf courses, if useful.  It needs to translate into, well, we need to conserve water. 

And in general, the golf industry is taking those steps.  Just saw a study showing something like 76% of courses reduced watered turf over the last few years, so there is progress.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #71 on: July 11, 2012, 01:18:22 PM »
P.S.  I don't play golf on my lawn, so fast and firm is not why I grow/maintain it.  Why have a brown lawn when its not meant for golf?

Because the reason why golf course supers keep their courses green and lush is precisely the same reason why you keep your lawns green and lush. Why would you bash someone for doing something exactly you are doing yourself?

To borrow a line from our recently departed, I think the "land fit for a purpose" axiom applies here.

My yard is not a golf course.  I won't be maintaining it as a golf course.  However, I may want to look at it, or go sit on it, or maybe my kids go play on it.  None of us want to sit on a brown crusty lawn.  We want green grass that looks nice and feels refreshing.

Different set of requirements for a golf course.  I don't want to sit on it, I want to play golf on it.  Fast and firm is a better playing surface and adds more interest.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2012, 01:20:00 PM »


And in general, the golf industry is taking those steps.  Just saw a study showing something like 76% of courses reduced watered turf over the last few years, so there is progress.


Any chance you could point me to this study?There are some people I know who need to see it.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2012, 01:24:43 PM »
When we choose to live near other people we accept minimum standards of which to maintain our property.  Be civilized and don't let your yard become three shades of green off the mean.  That goes both ways of course.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: So, how often do you water your lawn?
« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2012, 01:25:55 PM »
Jeff,

It came out of the recent Multiple Course Owners meeting.  Check your email.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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