When CB Macdonald first saw the Redan, what did he "see"?

[Peter Pallotta]

Did he see an ingenious and difficult "test" of golfing skill?

Did he see a brilliant example of one fundamental "principle" of golf course architecture?

Did he see a striking lesson in utilizing "natural landforms" as a field of play?

In other words, how did CBM "experience" the Redan the first time he played it?

Thanks

Peter

[Matthew Essig]

Is this a question of opinion or of facts that might be written down?

[Matthew Sander]

Peter,

I know it is bad form, but I'm going to respond to your question with a question. Do you think the appeal of the redan is that it so effectively illustrates the idea of - hit it here, so that it will end up over there (at least when the hole is back left)? Since it is a par three you are forced to consider this presentation since everyone will be hitting from a similar starting point. What you are faced with is not dependent upon the result of previous shots as would be the case with a par 4 or 5.

Also, the more aggressively you go after that back left hole location, the more precise and specific your shot has to be. Yet at first glance, that right hand kick-slope looks so far away from your ultimate goal that to play to that point may be too counter-intuitive for many.

EDIT: After re-reading your question I feel I should just delete this post, but I'll leave my response as a shining example of pitiful reading comprehension.

[Bryan Izatt]

Peter,

In the "Redan" article that he and Whigham wrote for Golf Illustrated he said:

"TAKE a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from
right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front
side, approach it diagonally, and you have
the Redan. At North Berwick, of course, all these
things were done in the beginning by nature. The
only original thing that the greenkeeper did was to
place the tee so that the shot had to be played corner
-wise, so to speak, instead of directly down the tableland."

So, I presume that the architectual "principle" in the topographical layout that he saw was as described above.


He then went on to write:

"And when you come to think of it that is the
secret of most of the great holes all over the world.
They all have some kind of a twist.

Said the North Berwick caddie to Mr. Macdonald
when he was on the quest for ideal holes for the coming
National Links “Here’s the hole that makes a
man think.”

So, another "principle" that he may have had in mind already is that great holes have a "twist".  But the caddie may have implanted another "principle" - that a great hole "makes a man think".

They go on to write about the options for playing the hole in different ways and different conditions, and the difficulties in doing so.  So, perhaps he saw some of the inherent difficulties.

The article also notes that the slope of the green site was natural at NB and was natural at his NGLA replica.  But he does allow that the architect could create the landform.  So, perhaps the natural landform inspired him but he wasn't averse to recreating it.

So, perhaps the answers to your questions is yes, yes, and yes.  But that's pure speculation.

[Sean_A]

Unless CBM did a sneak peak at the Redan before encountering it from the tee, he would probably not known what to think.  The ground play isn't at all obvious (which should be one of the hallmarks of the hole - far too many copies are far too obvious to compare favourably to the original) because there isn't much to see except for the top of a flag and a nasty bunker down the left.  Don't folks think that the Redan is one of the most visually disappointing famous holes?  Isn't that what all the later versions essentially focus on - improving the visual aspect of the hole from the tee?  On the original one either needs direction or experience to figure out the options.  Whether or not CBM was that into architecture on his first play of NB is very doubtful.  I suspect CBM knew the hole from previous plays and knew it to be something special before he ever contemplated building his own course.  Investigating the Redan as a "template" would have come later.

Ciao  

[Ronald Montesano]

Bryan Iz...that's the key to the concurrent thread on "Greatest Redan You've Never Seen."

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53937.0.html

Thank you for posting these quotes from the article. While I'm a fan of artistic license and poetic interpretation, I'm staunch about defining what a concept in its purest state is. The hybrid Redans that have made the rounds of late tend to distract (and even detract) from the sculpture and intent of the original and its best imitations.

Where might one find the entire essay?

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks much, gents.  I appreciated all the posts, and Sean got closest to what I was trying to ask, i.e. not so much what the Redan became for CBM (and later for the golfing world) but what it was, how it was experienced by him, the very first time he played it. Mark's thread reminded me of a  Redan-type hole I first played long before I was interested in gca, and I remember thinking a combination of wow/hard/what do I do here? all at once.

Peter