[Michael George]

Tom - I think the result of this thread is that it does not matter if the opening hole is a par 4 or 5 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom - I think the result of this thread is that it does not matter if the opening hole is a par 4 or 5 

Duly noted.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom - I think the result of this thread is that it does not matter if the opening hole is a par 4 or 5 

In honor of Royal Lytham & St Anne's, would a par 3 opener be acceptable?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am saying nothing new here. I think a par 5 opener is not a good idea due to 1. pace of play out of gates and  2. 3 shot holes much harder for mid to high handicappers   

[Matt MacIver]

We double-tee front and back during the summer so we have two options: the front starts 4-3 and the back 5-3.  The front ALWAYS backs up on the second hole while the par 3 on the back clears about half the time. 

The first hole is the #18 HC giving good golfers a birdie putt.  The par 5 10th is probably the easiest par 5, second shortest with slightly downhill green so there’s a turbo boost which provides options, making it a more fun opener where you can assess where your game is at and decide whether a potential blow-up so early is really worth it. 

Unfortunately there’s nowhere to hide on either of the next par 3s though (water, woods, OOB). 

So I don’t mind a par 5 opener, but would prefer it to have options and not overly penal – but then I say that about all holes.  So, full circle?: go ahead and just build the best hole possible, par (and length) be damned?

[Jud_T]

Guys,

We're veering a bit off topic here.  We're talking specifically about Dismal II I believe.  Therefore:

1.  Pace of play, while a serious consideration for all public courses and even some privates, is not an issue at a remote National Membership club.  People aren't flying and driving to the sand hills for tee times stacked up every 7 minutes!

2.  Par 5-  Sounds like this is what the best routing has given Tom on the first, there is no other option (?).  Sounds as if it's not the most dramatic part of the property so the real question is how difficult to make it.  Seems as if the consensus is that it shouldn't be overly difficult as an opener, but not dumbed down either.  Therefore some type of happy medium must be achieved as far as bunkering, interesting but receptive green and bail-out options for the higher handicap.

[PCCraig]

I like par-5's as opening holes. It's nice not having to be very precise with your opening tee shot knowing you can still get it back in play with your 2nd shot if you miss the fairway, hit it into a bunker, etc. And yes, as a 19th hole they are ideal when trying to break a match.

I don't quite understand the pace of play point. That might be an issue on a course that has full tee times every 9 min, but if it's not reachable for 95% of players (500+ yards) it can't make that big of a difference.

[Chris Johnston]

I like par-5's as opening holes. It's nice not having to be very precise with your opening tee shot knowing you can still get it back in play with your 2nd shot if you miss the fairway, hit it into a bunker, etc. And yes, as a 19th hole they are ideal when trying to break a match.

I don't quite understand the pace of play point. That might be an issue on a course that has full tee times every 9 min, but if it's not reachable for 95% of players (500+ yards) it can't make that big of a difference.

Pat - I agree with you 100%.  Be it a 4 or 5, the more "gentle handshake" is my preference.  To me, par on the the hole is subordinate to difficulty.  It's less fun to get knocked down on #1 and I also hate giving strokes on the opener when I may not yet be in a groove.

A first hole shouldn't be too easy (whatever that is) but shouldn't be over the top difficult.

Out here, pace of play isn't much of an issue as the first tee isn't usually crowded.

[Tom_Doak]

I generally think that the first and last holes should be near the end of the handicap stroke allotment.  The only thing worse than giving a stroke on the first playoff hole, is the higher-handicap player not getting one before the match is over.

[Neil White]

I generally think that the first and last holes should be near the end of the handicap stroke allotment.  The only thing worse than giving a stroke on the first playoff hole, is the higher-handicap player not getting one before the match is over.

Tom,

Stroke indices are something that we are considering reviewing at my home course.

From reading numerous guidelines it would appear that the general consensus is that holes 1, 9, 10 & 18 should have indices 9 thru 12.

You wouldn't believe how contentious people's views on stroke index allotments really are........!!

Neil.

[Jud_T]

For reference, the first hole at Kingsley is the #4 handicap hole, so I'm almost always getting a bump....Of course I'm often getting a double as well....It actually works out fine in match play, particularly that most matches are settled on #9 rather than hiking all the way up to #1 green and back.  For the scorecard and pencil set it's a very rough start, but Kingsley generally treats medal play fanatics with disdain....

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