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PThomas

  • Total Karma: -20
I got to play there few years ago and REALLY liked it, but heard rumors that some of the greens would be toned down...has that happened?  any other changes?

I wonder if this is a test run for a Men's Open....
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 05:25:13 PM »
Paul:

There are a handful of new back tees since we built the course, but those won't be in play for the ladies.

We built a new green on #16 the year the course opened, which made the hole +/- 60 yards longer.  You may have played that one.

Three years ago, they extended #4 green at the back, and built a new green forty yards up the hill on #14.  I wasn't involved with those.  The green on #14 has generally been described as very severe, and I hear they softened the back of it this past fall.  But, I've never seen it, so I can't really comment.  [Assuming that's not a comment in itself.]

I don't believe any of the other greens have been touched, and it would be too late to do anything with them now, 12 months out before the event.  I've heard that Mike Davis thinks they can run the greens at 12 or 13 for the Women's Open.  If he does, I hope the wind doesn't blow.

Mac Plumart

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 05:26:20 PM »
I've heard that Mike Davis thinks they can run the greens at 12 or 13 for the Women's Open

 :'(
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Keith OHalloran

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 07:33:33 PM »
Tom,
What do you think of the routing change to start on 2, and play 1 as a drive able par 4 as the ninth?

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 08:03:08 PM »
Tom,
What do you think of the routing change to start on 2, and play 1 as a drive able par 4 as the ninth?

Keith:

That's news to me, I haven't heard anything about it, much less was I asked about it.

I'll reserve comment in case I'm ever asked.

Keith OHalloran

  • Total Karma: 0

Patrick_Mucci

Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2012, 08:12:06 PM »
Tom,
What do you think of the routing change to start on 2, and play 1 as a drive able par 4 as the ninth?

Keith,

That would seem rather cumbersome in terms of the flow of play


Keith OHalloran

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2012, 08:14:14 PM »
Pat,
I feel the same way, I also think tht starting on 2 is a tough start. Not to mention altering the way the architect expected the course to flow.

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 08:19:43 PM »
I've heard that Mike Davis thinks they can run the greens at 12 or 13 for the Women's Open

 :'(

That couldn't possibly be true, but if it is true he's a complete bonehead.

But then we heard quotes saying Congressional would run at 15.
 ;D well nevr know as the rain changed everything.

How can we trust the future of the game to people who bring the venue to a site with wonderful, challenging greens, then bastardize them with silly speeds which would render any good pin useless, to say nothing of the unsustainability of the game by demanding/asking for such silly speeds.
(especially on challenging greens) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume HE didn't say that.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 08:35:23 PM »
Jeff,

I agree, I can't imagine greens with those slopes running at 13.

Arthur Weber's treatise on green speeds and slopes would seem to confirm our position.

I think that statement is media driven hype absent the site specific facts

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 09:03:02 PM »
Jeff,

I agree, I can't imagine greens with those slopes running at 13.

Arthur Weber's treatise on green speeds and slopes would seem to confirm our position.

I think that statement is media driven hype absent the site specific facts

The Newsday article linked above quoted the superintendent, Garret Bodington, as saying the greens were 11 or 12 for everyday play, and that getting them up to 13 for the tournament should be no problem.

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 09:10:34 PM »
Jeff,

I agree, I can't imagine greens with those slopes running at 13.

Arthur Weber's treatise on green speeds and slopes would seem to confirm our position.

I think that statement is media driven hype absent the site specific facts

The Newsday article linked above quoted the superintendent, Garret Bodington, as saying the greens were 11 or 12 for everyday play, and that getting them up to 13 for the tournament should be no problem.

Better set the first tee time at 4 am then
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 09:27:21 PM »
Tom Doak,

Given the winds that sweep that site, the slope of the greens and Arthur Weber's scientific study, do you think that quote is accurate ?

At 13 on the Stimp a ball will not stop rolling on a four (4) degree slope.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2012, 08:18:54 AM »
Tom Doak,

Given the winds that sweep that site, the slope of the greens and Arthur Weber's scientific study, do you think that quote is accurate ?

At 13 on the Stimp a ball will not stop rolling on a four (4) degree slope.

Patrick:

Yes, I know that, I've designed a whole lot of greens.

Every green at Sebonack has multiple hole locations with 3% or less slope, so, in theory, they should be okay.  There are a couple of greens where if you're on the wrong part with the hole in a certain spot, it's not possible to stop a putt anywhere near that hole, so players would be advised to avoid those wrong parts of the greens.

However, as you say, it's also a windy place.  If you are putting downhill on the 3% slope and you are putting downwind ... the greens don't even have to be 13 for that to be trouble.

I am sure that Mike Davis knows what he's doing.  I don't think he is definitely out of bounds with this ... those women can all play.  But, I do think he's flirting with trouble if the greens are really that fast.  The last time I saw greens that were too fast plus wind was only a mile from the front gate at Sebonack, and that didn't turn out so well.

Rich Goodale

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2012, 08:22:25 AM »
Are they going to play from the tips?  If not, why hold a "Championship" there?
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

SteveOgulukian

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2012, 08:41:09 AM »
Fair enough Tom. This is where I got it from


http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/mark-herrmann/sebonack-ready-to-go-for-u-s-women-s-open-1.3821712

Kevin,

Could you please post this article in its entirety?  Newsday doesn't allow us all to view the article without logging in.

Phil McDade

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2012, 09:13:43 AM »
Here it is (with one interesting comment at the end):

Sebonack ready to go for U.S. Women's Open
July 4, 2012 8:21 PM By MARK HERRMANN mark.herrmann@newsday.com

With a major championship less than a year away, you would think that Sebonack Golf Club would be awash in projects such as moving earth, building tee boxes, cultivating rough and downing trees. You would be mistaken. Sebonack is pretty much ready for the 2013 U.S. Women's Open right now.
"They keep it in wonderful shape year-round," said Ben Kimball, the U.S. Golf Association's official in charge of the Women's Open. "So most of the things that we're doing are just tightening screws: minor detail items."
"Their place looks like this," Kimball said, referring to Blackwolf Run, site of this year's Women's Open, "every single day."
So with this year's Open starting Thursday, the countdown begins for the club on Peconic Bay in Southampton. It is a busy, anticipatory countdown, just not a frantic one. "Sebonack is only seven years old and it's still evolving. But what we're pretty much doing between now and the Open, other than overseeding some primary rough, is just improving and maintaining the quality of what we have," said Garret Bodington, the club's superintendent.
He added that on weekends these days, the course's greens are running between 11 and 12 on the Stimpmeter, so it will not be a stretch to get them to 13 for the biggest tournament in women's golf next June 27-30. There won't be a whole lot of rough to grow because the USGA is looking for a wide open Open, with the challenges being posed by the wind and the speed and contour of the greens.
"Here at Sebonack, there are over 50 acres of fairway. At Olympic, there were only 20," said Bodington, who worked on the Bethpage staff for the 2002 U.S. Open and attended the men's Open at San Francisco's Olympic Club last month. "Some of our fairways are 100 yards wide, and a majority of them are 60 to 70 yards wide. I think it's going to be all about longer hitters and anyone who has a good short game."
The only major change will be in the routing, Bodington said. The current second hole will be No. 1 for the Women's Open and the relatively short No. 1 will become No. 9. The latter can be set up so to be a drivable par 4, something the USGA would not attempt if it were the opening hole. Also, this way, the ninth and 18th greens will be near each other.
For fans, many logistics will be the same as those used for U.S. Opens at Shinnecock Hills (the Shinnecock Hills clubhouse is visible from the course at Sebonack). For instance, there will be buses from the Long Island Rail Road station to the public entrance, near the 13th hole. In a new wrinkle, officials are trying to line up public parking in Southampton, rather than at Gabreski Airport in Westhampton.
Fans will notice other differences, too. A Women's Open is much smaller in scope than a men's Open: smaller crowds, less noise, fewer corporate tents. Then again, it is a national championship. Championship director Laura Caleal said 5,000 bleacher seats will be built. She expects excitement to keep building, too.
"Ticket sales have been terrific," she said on the porch at the Sebonack clubhouse last week. "Long Island is just so golf-savvy. People here understand major championships. There are 150-some odd golf courses here. I think that says a lot. I also think Sebonack has such an allure, especially among people who really understand golf."
--------------
eleetsh 2 days ago
I have played Sebonac a few times this year and on the days that I played the greens were nothing close to an 11 or 12 but more like a 9 if they had even been cut that day; however, the course is fantastic and on a great piece of land that will certainly challenge the best women golfers in the world

Patrick_Mucci

Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2012, 11:15:15 AM »
Are they going to play from the tips?  If not, why hold a "Championship" there?


Rich,

Playing from the tips, Sebonack is really, really hard.
Too hard for the event IMO.

jeffwarne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there? New
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2012, 12:01:19 PM »
Tom Doak,

Given the winds that sweep that site, the slope of the greens and Arthur Weber's scientific study, do you think that quote is accurate ?

At 13 on the Stimp a ball will not stop rolling on a four (4) degree slope.

Patrick:

Yes, I know that, I've designed a whole lot of greens.

Every green at Sebonack has multiple hole locations with 3% or less slope, so, in theory, they should be okay.  There are a couple of greens where if you're on the wrong part with the hole in a certain spot, it's not possible to stop a putt anywhere near that hole, so players would be advised to avoid those wrong parts of the greens.

However, as you say, it's also a windy place.  If you are putting downhill on the 3% slope and you are putting downwind ... the greens don't even have to be 13 for that to be trouble.

I am sure that Mike Davis knows what he's doing.  I don't think he is definitely out of bounds with this ... those women can all play.  But, I do think he's flirting with trouble if the greens are really that fast.  The last time I saw greens that were too fast plus wind was only a mile from the front gate at Sebonack, and that didn't turn out so well.

I just can't see how the USGA can even THINK about promoting sustainability when everything we read about championships involves bogus green speeds.(I was seeing quotes about 14 and 15 in other Opens-never happened)
13 at Sebonack will require use of the most benign pins there, and if the wind blows that's still a crapshoot.

Why not play at a reasonable speed and use more interesting pins, which Seboanack is loaded with?
Why not promote Sebonack as the great, thinking person's golf course that it is,that doesn't require amping up (which they are completely capable of) to be a challenge?
Every member out there of every club thinks that 13.14,15 are obtainable speeds after hearing such quotes.
In my opinion that's all BS and if your course requires such speeds(Sebonack certainly doesn't) it's probably not very good to begin with.
and so no one misunderstands me, I think Sebonack is a great golf course

« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 02:43:42 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Will Lozier

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: next years Women's Open at Sebonack: what's changed there?
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2012, 12:45:34 PM »
Silly to say that they want make #1 a drivable par-4 at times (great idea...perhaps everyday!) AS AN OPENING HOLE!  When Palmer drove #1 at Cherry Hills, the USGA had one of it's great stories!

The fabricated walk from "8 to 9" looks like it will be hideous!

Cheers