[jeffwarne]

Pat,
I did not miss your point about your lawn being better at withstanding drought.  I think most of us are aware that pre-stress conditioning is good for turf and most courses would benefit from being drier at certain times of the year.  However, never have a conversation with a superintendent that starts "my lawn" because that immediately closes their ears.  You may have a valid point but we don't want to hear how your lawn is anywhere near the same as our golf green so try to limit the references to your lawn.

Reminds of how a member at Long Cove used to tell me there was no way we could have a frost delay because the "puddle next to his driveway wasn't frozen".

[Anthony_Nysse]

Finally, we live in the United States, not the United Kingdom.  Our climate is completely different so some of you hard-core "only brown is good" guys need to realize that courses in the US will never be maintained or play like the UK! 

I will close with this remark.

How does Newport's golf course survive with NO automated irrigation system ?
They're not in the UK, they're here in the US.

Ditto Maidstone ?

If they can maintain those courses at those conditions (brown, brownish-yellowish-greenish) why can't other courses with automated irrigation maintain them other than at a deep, lush green, with no roll ?

If it never got above 80 here in good ole Nebraska my turf management would be completely different.  "Its the weather, man."

[/quote]

Newport doesnt always survive. Maidstone has had fairways issues. Fishers Island, as well. Certainly not the Superintendents fault, each one did what they could with what they had. I think that if you look back to over the last 10 years, each one of those courses, along with a few others in that area of the country that a viewed VERY highly by the board, lost a lot of turf in the fairways and were seeded fairways in the fall. Summers of very warm temperatures and no rain. They have accepted they may lose tremendous amounts of turf, but 99% of clubs in America would not tolerate this approach.

[jeffwarne]

Finally, we live in the United States, not the United Kingdom.  Our climate is completely different so some of you hard-core "only brown is good" guys need to realize that courses in the US will never be maintained or play like the UK! 

I will close with this remark.

How does Newport's golf course survive with NO automated irrigation system ?
They're not in the UK, they're here in the US.

Ditto Maidstone ?

If they can maintain those courses at those conditions (brown, brownish-yellowish-greenish) why can't other courses with automated irrigation maintain them other than at a deep, lush green, with no roll ?

If it never got above 80 here in good ole Nebraska my turf management would be completely different.  "Its the weather, man."

Newport doesnt always survive. Maidstone has had fairways issues. Fishers Island, as well. Certainly not the Superintendents fault, each one did what they could with what they had. I think that if you look back to over the last 10 years, each one of those courses, along with a few others in that area of the country that a viewed VERY highly by the board, lost a lot of turf in the fairways and were seeded fairways in the fall. Summers of very warm temperatures and no rain. They have accepted they may lose tremendous amounts of turf, but 99% of clubs in America would not tolerate this approach.
[/quote]

Maidstone is often reseeding in the fall.pretty poor playing conditions during that time.
Most members don't care as they are not there in the fall, as Anthony says most memberships wouldn't tolerate this.

[JMEvensky]

 as Anthony says most memberships wouldn't tolerate this.

God help me for speaking for Mucci.I think PM's larger point is that memberships used to tolerate this and golf was just as good,if not more fun.

Leave aside the no irrigation/perfectly manicured extremes.In the day,memberships tolerated a lot of imperfections on the golf course because they didn't really impact the game.The cost of fighting Mother Nature wasn't worth it even if you could.

What seems to have changed is the idea that it's now acceptable to spend huge amounts on maintenance budgets for arguably irrelevant "improvements".

[jeffwarne]

 as Anthony says most memberships wouldn't tolerate this.

God help me for speaking for Mucci.I think PM's larger point is that memberships used to tolerate this and golf was just as good,if not more fun.

I agree 100%
which is why I play regularly at an unirrigated course.

To answer Pat's original question, I'd say memberships are at fault.
They evidently prefer soft fairways in July to dirt/reseeded fairways in the fall.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Finally, we live in the United States, not the United Kingdom.  Our climate is completely different so some of you hard-core "only brown is good" guys need to realize that courses in the US will never be maintained or play like the UK! 

I will close with this remark.

How does Newport's golf course survive with NO automated irrigation system ?
They're not in the UK, they're here in the US.

Ditto Maidstone ?

If they can maintain those courses at those conditions (brown, brownish-yellowish-greenish) why can't other courses with automated irrigation maintain them other than at a deep, lush green, with no roll ?

If it never got above 80 here in good ole Nebraska my turf management would be completely different.  "Its the weather, man."

Newport doesnt always survive. Maidstone has had fairways issues. Fishers Island, as well.

Tony,

Those courses/clubs have and continue to do quite well.
They all survive, they're all playable irrespective of the weather, year in and year out, decade in and decade out.

Certainly not the Superintendents fault, each one did what they could with what they had. I think that if you look back to over the last 10 years, each one of those courses, along with a few others in that area of the country that a viewed VERY highly by the board, lost a lot of turf in the fairways and were seeded fairways in the fall.

I never claimed that they were in perfect or pristine condition 365 days a year.
All courses have problems at different times and for different reasons.
Irrespective of those problems, the members and their guests enjoy playing golf on those courses, day in and day out, decade in and decade out.

Summers of very warm temperatures and no rain.

I've seen them emerald green and brown, but, the members enjoy playing them regardless of the hand Mother Nature deals them.

They have accepted they may lose tremendous amounts of turf, but 99% of clubs in America would not tolerate this approach.
WHY NOT ?

That's the critical issue isn't it ?

I understand the uniqueness of Mother Nature's impact in South Florida, versus the Oregon Coast or the Northeast.

I can tell you, without fear of contradiction, that courses in the Northeast in the 50's and 60's used to brown out on the fairways, and yet, the members continued to enjoy playing them.

They accepted Mother Nature's impact on conditions.

So, why have memberships transitioned to accepting the hand that Mother Nature dealt, to only expecting and accepting perfection, vis a vis, lush green fairways, irrespective of Mother Nature's influence ?
[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

JME & Jeff Warne,

AHHHH,  you're getting warmer, much warmer !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
I did not miss your point about your lawn being better at withstanding drought.  I think most of us are aware that pre-stress conditioning is good for turf and most courses would benefit from being drier at certain times of the year.  However, never have a conversation with a superintendent that starts "my lawn" because that immediately closes their ears. 

Only if they don't understand the more global issue combined with the analogy

You may have a valid point but we don't want to hear how your lawn is anywhere near the same as our golf green so try to limit the references to your lawn.

I NEVER stated that my lawn was equivalent to a green.
The reference to my lawn was to illustrate a difference in culture, which, you missed.

Perhaps the 100 degree mention was extreme but there is little to no margin for error when you start getting air temps above 95 and soil temps in the 80s. 

Josh, you're not going to tell me that air temperatures never reached 95+ and soil temperatures never reached 80+ in the 40's, 50's and 60's.

I think you're being "defensive" and taking the topic personally.
Take a step back and try to visualize golf, as it was played and enjoyed in the 40's, 50's and 60's, under brown conditions, readily accepted in the summer and how those same conditions would not be accepted today.

What changed.
Certainly not the soil profile, certainly not Mother Nature.
Only membership perceptions and cultures have changed.
WHY ?

I have no idea what your weather has been like at the course you are referencing but someone mentioned 100 degrees and I ran with that-probably not the best example.  But if you are playing courses with no roll then maybe you should head elsewhere.

You were doing so well until you came up with that dumb remark.

Another mistake I made in my argument was the generalization that we live in the US, but I did not consider the 10% of the country that does have climate somewhat similar to the UK.  But you were kind enough to point them out to me.  Citing Maidstone and Newport as  examples of F&F really does not compare to the rest of the country.

I never stated that the climates at Maidstone and Newport were universal.
In fact, I've stated many times that F&F in South Florida in the summer is next to impossible.

What you missed again, is that many courses enjoy the same basic climate and/or conditions that Maidstone, Newport and Fishers Island enjoy, but, they're lush green, irrespective of Mother Nature's influence.   WHY ?


LI has a pretty benign microclimate. 

There are other places like the Oregon coast that would do well under a British style turf management system.  Forgive me for throwing them in the same boat as the rest of us here in the states.  And I believe Maidstone does now have fairway irrigation but that really isn't the point.

And you are correct that I was not around in the 60s -
I am so young I don't even know what a septuagenarian is!

That's what dictionaries are for.

Gotta go now to irrigate my golf course!

WHY ?

[Donnie Beck]

A few pictures taken this morning. I am not sure if every club would find this acceptable but it sure is fun to play for a few months each year.

[Sean_A]

A few pictures taken this morning. I am not sure if every club would find this acceptable but it sure is fun to play for a few months each year.

Donnie

How close is that course to the danger zone in terms of losing the turf?

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

The photos were taken this morning, July 15, 2012.

The course opened in July 1926.

So, for 86 years it would appear that the turf has survived Mother Nature's whims quite well.

Donnie Beck can answer your question directly and precisely, but, my take, based upon the photos and the fact that the course has survived the last 86 years, is that the course, today, is not close to the danger zone of losing the turf.

Does that surprise you ?

Josh,

What you missed and continued to miss is the fact that despite the heat and lack of rain, some courses are nothing but lush, dark green with NO hint of discoloration.

What does that, or rather what should that tell you ?

To me, it seems to indicate overwatering.
What does it signify to you if there's no evidence of any color other than lush, dark green ?

Second question:

Are you telling us that you're incapable of maintaining a golf course in any condition other than lush, dark green ?
Even when Mother Nature is assisting you ?

[Donnie Beck]

Sean,

I can assure you the fairways are not even close to the danger zone... They have only been dormant for a few weeks and it is raining as I type. In the 19 years i have been here there has only been two years that there was wide spread ( probably 30%) turf loss. In both of those cases we went 40 plus days without rain and most of the damage was caused by cart traffic.

[PThomas]

A few pictures taken this morning. I am not sure if every club would find this acceptable but it sure is fun to play for a few months each year.

God that looks fucking awesome...brown is beautiful!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

Paul Thomas references Seminole in his footnote.

Seminole doesn't overseed.

Hence, the fairways tend to get that brownish-yellowish-greenish tinge, but, from a playability standpoint, they're fabulous.

Fishers Island is one of the great courses in the US, as is Newport.

In my limited experience, the members of those clubs tend to belong to other clubs as well, thus they have a basis for comparison between the clubs they belong to.  I've never heard a member of either course complain about conditions.

It's a culture, a mindset, unfortunately, most of the golf world is brainwashed by watching the PGA Tour on TV.

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, I've always gotten the impression you are quite a fan of everything that is ANGC in our discussions over the years.  Are they missing any turf ideas regarding their use of water, or presentation of the course?  Even if you take out the weeks of the year surrounding the lead up to the Masters, do they have any inclinations to accept the 'brown is beautiful' lean and mean turf regime you seem to suggest? 

What is Fisher's Is., predominant turf species?  Josh has dwarf blue grass FWs and HOC higher than most bentgrass and poa predominant turf stands.  He has sand based rootzones, and micro climate conditions even different than SH some 100 miles away.  He, like these others do what they must to strike the long term viability of optimal conditions as much and as long during the year of seasonal changes, as is possible.

Pat, you seem to be saying that the biggest challenge to golfers accepting a little brown, yellow, or whatever off color from lush green is cultural acceptance within the overall golfing community where the general public's attitudes are shaped by marketing and imagery.  You seem to know it is an uphill battle that has to overcome the images on pro tours that promote lush and green.  But, is it realistic to preach that the F&F ideals of a few isolated enclaves like FI can be achieved in such a wide variance of climates and regional diversities? 

When one carries the torch (like Melvyn did with walking and other modern aids and enhancements) with no allowance for specific and diverse realities, the dogma becomes pedantic and too much of a divergence from learned and experienced professional practices that these above supers are trying to state are their realities based on the science and specifics of their geographical conditions. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I've always gotten the impression you are quite a fan of everything that is ANGC in our discussions over the years. 

I've always been a fan of the golf course and have defended the quality of the architecture and design.

Are they missing any turf ideas regarding their use of water, or presentation of the course?

RJ, you can't be that obtuse.
The Masters is a televised event, Showtime, where contrast between green grass, white sand and bright flowers are the focus.

  Even if you take out the weeks of the year surrounding the lead up to the Masters, do they have any inclinations to accept the 'brown is beautiful' lean and mean turf regime you seem to suggest? 

It's a winter club

What is Fisher's Is., predominant turf species?  Josh has dwarf blue grass FWs and HOC higher than most bentgrass and poa predominant turf stands.  He has sand based rootzones, and micro climate conditions even different than SH some 100 miles away.  He, like these others do what they must to strike the long term viability of optimal conditions as much and as long during the year of seasonal changes, as is possible.
"they"do what the membership dictates.
To defend, and posture that "off green" conditions are impossible to attain is ridiculous

Pat, you seem to be saying that the biggest challenge to golfers accepting a little brown, yellow, or whatever off color from lush green is cultural acceptance within the overall golfing community where the general public's attitudes are shaped by marketing and imagery. 
You could say that

You seem to know it is an uphill battle that has to overcome the images on pro tours that promote lush and green. 

You could say that

But, is it realistic to preach that the F&F ideals of a few isolated enclaves like FI can be achieved in such a wide variance of climates and regional diversities? 

Yes, especially given that "off" lush green conditions existed in the past.
To state, as you are stating, that it's impossible to present anything other than lush, dark green is absurd.

When one carries the torch (like Melvyn did with walking and other modern aids and enhancements) with no allowance for specific and diverse realities,

That's pure bullshit, NO ONE, and especially ME, never stated that a rigid monochromatic standard existed, that made no allowance for diversity, geographically or otherwise.

You and others need to read more carefully and NOT insert your misguided take on what was presented

 the dogma becomes pedantic and too much of a divergence from learned and experienced professional practices that these above supers are trying to state are their realities based on the science and specifics of their geographical conditions. 

I know what the realities are.
I know geography and the climates associated with same.
Please do yourself a favor and reread what was typed and not the misguided misinterpretations of what I typed.

The notion, postured by Josh, that he can't get his grass, agronomically, to be anything other than lush, dark green is preposterous.
I understand that it may be difficult politically and culturally, but please don't try to tell anyone that it's impossible to do agronomically.

Josh was defensive.
You're trying to defend his defensive position, ignoring reality.

I 'll guarantee you that if I offered Josh a $ 1,000,000 bonus and increased his budget to his needs that he could improve playing conditions at the expense of coloration..

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I can assure you the fairways are not even close to the danger zone... They have only been dormant for a few weeks and it is raining as I type. In the 19 years i have been here there has only been two years that there was wide spread ( probably 30%) turf loss. In both of those cases we went 40 plus days without rain and most of the damage was caused by cart traffic.

Donnie

Thanks.  To my untrained eye the grass looks very healthy...and partially dormant - as you say.  In fact, the grass looks only one good day of rain away from being green.  Since you have been at the club for so long and know the cycles of weather and the grass, if you had a fairway system, do you think the members would insist it be turned on if it weren't raining? 

Pat

Yes, Fishers has always intrigued as much for its design as for its watering "practices".  For a club of Fishers stature not having fairway watering must be damn close to unheard of. 

No, it doesn't surprise me that the turf is healthy, but I thought it best to hear Donnie make that claim.  I don't know the type of grasses at Fishers nor do I know what the goal of the club is in terms of the turf.  Essentially, I think this is what we are arguing about.  Many memberships want green grass and supers deliver that.  I agree with you in that the goal should be healthy grass for golf which as much as possible should be dictated by weather.  I say this not only because I believe in the long-term it will save resources, but also because the course will essentially play differently each time out - and that is a huge plus for me. 

Ciao

[Donnie Beck]

Sean,

Our fairways are 80% fescue/20% Colonial Bentgrass. Our sandy soils allow these grasses to grow a 18-24" rootsystem. There are times when an irrigation system would be nice for watering in products but in general the membership loves the changing of the seasons and I doubt we will ever put one in. The course plays so differently throughout the year. If we ever did put one in it would only be used to watering product and limited use under severe drought years. Ryan and Bradley have make very good points earlier in the thread. Turning off the irrigation on a course that has been irrigated for years would be a diaster as the root systems have shallowed by years of constant watering.

[Sean_A]

Thanks Donnie. 

I don't expect anybody meant "turn the water off and let nature takes it course come what may".  It as to be a gradual switch off.  Even at a links which is trying to encourage finer grasses to grow there is normally a long term plan - not just turn the water off.  We had a 5 year plan and I expect a new plan will be started as the course still has some way to go. 

Ciao 

[RJ_Daley]

Pat says:

The notion, postured by Josh, that he can't get his grass, agronomically, to be anything other than lush, dark green is preposterous.
I understand that it may be difficult politically and culturally, but please don't try to tell anyone that it's impossible to do agronomically.

Josh was defensive.
You're trying to defend his defensive position, ignoring reality.

I 'll guarantee you that if I offered Josh a $ 1,000,000 bonus and increased his budget to his needs that he could improve playing conditions at the expense of coloration..

While I am not interested in making this a discussion about Josh and his maintenance practices, it just so happens that his circumstance is contrary to your theme that he somehow has to turn off the water to achieve firm and fast.  Com'mon Pat, you know better from first hand witness!!  Josh manages dwarf blue grass, at a HOC well above most of your favorite N.Y. N.J.  Metro courses that you hold up as examples of F&F.  Josh has himself seen some of these L.I. courses and knows full well what goes into their F&F maintenance melds including their specific requirements based on their species mixes. His dwarf blues are as F&F as anything you have out there, I'll take a chance and say even F.I.   The dwarf blue hue of healthy dwarf blues looks more lush and green due to its species characteristics.  But, if you take Donnie's stand of 80% fescue and 20% bent, compare it to Josh's near 100% dwarf blue, and do a firmness test, compare ball roll out, even with Josh's higher HOC, well..... you are probably going to find similar F&F conditions for as many days of the season.  Would you agree with that?

So, if Josh can achieve the famous Wild Horse maintenance meld of F&F on his dwarf blues FWs, and with his inputs including iron and a fert program that gives the dark blue-green hues, why would he turn off the water to get to a brownish patina you equate with your ideal of how golf of F&F requires in your neighborhood?  There are ways these supers can get to a similar result that require a specific regime that differs by locale and climate.  The only thing budget won't allow was for Josh to have continued to maintain the 30 yard approaches in the original fescue that was seeded in the beginning.  We GCA types all loved that, but his members weren't as wild about it.  Those approaches have been modified for member desires, who sign his pay check, which isn't quite up to the N.Y. L.I. wage scale or budget.  But, when it comes to maintaining F&F fairways, Wild Horse shareholders are getting an extremely good deal, when you compare F&F conditions anywhere on the planet.  That includes some of the best greens you can compare with, anywhere!

If you are going to give Josh a million, I want an agent promoter cut of just 10%.  He and I are worth every penny!   

[Josh_Mahar]

Pat, 
  I will play your favorite debate trump card, you missed my point.  But in this case you really did miss my point whereas when you state it most of the time the other party has not missed your point but merely counterpointed. 
Don't know where I stated or even hinted that my or any other golf course needs to be maintained at a lush green color throughout.  I was merely pointing out that brown grass under certain conditions is going to remain brown until it becomes dirt at which point some club members will not be excited about the superintendents job performance.  Is that right?  Depends I guess on expectations which I think is what you want this post to be about rather than the agronomic slant it has taken. 

Are all superintendents good irrigation managers?  No, and in fact I think that is probably our worst agronomic skill judged as a whole. If courses are all green, then yes overwatering has probably occurred at some point and we should grab the pitchforks and storm the barn.  I guess thats what you want?  I will readily admit that irrigation management is where superintendents including myself have the most room for improvement.  People are generally most defensive about their weaknesses, thus perhaps my defensive tone.

Dick,
I appreciate your support but my course is not really firm and fast, but we try to put out a good product that our clientele will enjoy.
BTW, I would guess our HOC is equal to most on LI  for what it is worth.

Donnie mentioned his damage has been from cart traffic.  AHA!  I probably have as many carts on my course in a day as Donnie does in a month. 
But this thread should not be about my maintenance practices but about getting some gawl darn brown on some of these courses.

[RJ_Daley]

Admittedly, I haven't seen WH in the heat stress of summer in several years and you may be having to pour more water on than I can remember or imagine.  Most of my play at your place has been in Oct lately.  But, if your course isn't firm and fast at that time by the standards of what most of us are used to in public or municipal golf facilities, then I must have some sort of firm and fast perception disorder (FFPD to be published soon in JAMA  ) of which there are no blue pills to cure!  If there is one thing I don't hear much is; those greens and FWs at WH are a wee slow, and a bit soft. What is your FW HOC and do you change it as seasons progress?  Maybe it is the nature of the leaf in the dwarf blues and how nice the ball sits up in a nice lie on your surfaces, but your HOC seems more than our FWs in these parts, which are mostly poa and sparse bent.

I'm sticking with 10% agent fee when Mucci bonuses you for a million based on my referral. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Josh,

Why don't you go back and reread my original post.

Did I indicate that the grass should be brown ?
No, I didn't, you and others went to that extreme.

I cited fairways with brownish-yellowish-greenish coloration

Got to run, but, I'll be back !

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