Cypress Point criticism ?

[Phil McDade]

Criticizing Cypress Point - especially if you haven't played it! - is a bit like suggesting the Mona Lisa might be a bit cross eyed.

Bill:

I made a point of seeing the Mona Lisa when I visited the Louvre, and my first thought was: "Is that it?"

I have not played Cypress Point; my guess is that my reaction would be somewhat different.

[PThomas]

Criticizing Cypress Point - especially if you haven't played it! - is a bit like suggesting the Mona Lisa might be a bit cross eyed.

exactly

[Adam Clayman]

Phil, One of the elderly gentlemen, I first met when moving to the peninsula, said almost those exact words about CPC. He didn't see what all the fuss was about.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Caddie program and too many goldman saks types for new members.

[ed_getka]

Too many dogleg rights is an interesting criticism I would never have thought of. As Mike points out it hardly matters given the width of the course and how the greens are set up. As Dan points out beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Having seen a fair number of courses over the years I have yet to have played one that I couldn't nitpick something about it, but I think the totality of the course is the one of the important keys to greatness. Cypress Point is certainly one of those rare gems in the golf world, but one could nitpick about 4 par 5's, #2 , #5, #6, #10 and then they are done. Back to back short par 4's at #8 & #9. Back to back par 3's at #15 & #16. To nitpick about those things would be to disregard the flow of the course which is fantastic. Pacific Dunes is similar in that you could look at the scorecard and say that is a bizarre sequence of holes, but the flow is so fantastic that it doesn't even occur to you when you are playing the course.
    If a course were to only accomodate one shot shape to a great degree then that would be more of a problem in my mind. In thinking through the holes at Cypress I can't really think of a certain shot shape being favored.

[Kevin Pallier]

Do they also think Ballybunion is deficient because it has too many doglegs to the left?

(Had anyone else even noticed?)

No one who dislikes Cypress Point should ever be bothered to go back.

Tom

Ballybunion has 4 distinct dogleg lefts I believe #6 , 16, 17 and 18 ?

Cypress has around 8 dogleg rights # 1, 4, 8, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and possibly #16 - a pretty hight proportion ?

I never said the person disliked the course - every course has it's flaws and I thought it was an interesting point of view.

[Brett_Morrissy]

KP,
"too many dogleg right holes"  ...a valid point or not?

I personally found Cypress close to perfection if there is such a thing, with so many elements that I enjoy and find important in a great course ...I think your friend's comment is flawed.

As mentioned earlier there is so mich width, although some of the holes you mentioned (1,4,13,) may have a slight bend to the right, unless the player hits a hook(not draw), then they surely cannot call those holes doglegs. The definition for me lies in the strategic turning point of a dog leg, with options to lay up to a corner, or require a long and accurate tee shot to achieve an advantage in clearing that turning point to get around the corner - can you agree with this?.  8, 12, 18, require strategic options off the tee to gain a preferred line into a flag as mor strict dog legs - correct?

14 for me, is a full tee shot to a bottleneck, followed by a short club , I don't see this as a dogleg.
Even 17, there is no real advantage in placing your tee shot close to the shortest distance, which of course is the cliff edge, so this is the unwisest choice off the tee, but to be short or long of the fairway cypress. So is this really a dog leg?

My home club has a dog leg right P3 also !?

Finally, as the properties premier feature is the actual point(Cypress), then whether Mackenzie routed the point clockwise or anti clockwise, to take best advantage of coastal land, he was going to have to bend the holes around the cliffs edges, so surely this bending (or dog legging) of holes is a highlight and not a deficiency ? If this is agreed, then we ar left with holes 1-14, which I am sure there are equal examples of holes straight, bend to turn left or right, and also equally thru dunes and forest - heaven.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think this thread makes the finding of Raynor's routing all the more important.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Left 2, 5,6,9ish
Right 8,12,13,17,18,  I do not see this as a big overly dog leg course. This is a weak point to me. I think the course is close to a gift from above once one accepts it is just a golf course. They have a history of great head pros as well as Casy being a great guy.  horrid caddies to deal with a bunch of new yahoos for members are the onlynegatives I know of.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think this thread makes the finding of Raynor's routing all the more important.

Patrick:

How many times have you played Cypress point?

Half a dozen times or more.

WHY do you ask ?

When was the last time you played it?

[Joel_Stewart]

I probably have played it more than anyone on this site.  The routing is superb and the collection of holes is a non starter for me.

I originally didn't like having so many par 5's so close, 2,5,6 but each is unique and it adds to the intrigue.

My only criticism is they are clearly using the wrong type of grass and the conditioning is over the top.  For an ocean set course, I think they should go to a fescue or some other type of grass that is appropriate. Conditioning the course like Augusta doesn't seem right to me but I'm told the vast majority of members want it like this.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joel,

What do you mean, specifically, by over the top conditioning at CPC ?

[Brett_Morrissy]

Joel, I am with you on this, it was all a very deep green, same across the bay at Pebble, Poa greens and lush turf, my personal preference would be for a more firmer faster turf conditioning, not sure what the appropriate turf is though, guided by wiser heads here. For such an idyllic coastal environment, MHO is that the course should be consistent with the coastal landscape in that sense, truer to its natural surrounds.

[Ben Jarvis]

Although very green and manicured, the Cypress played firm enough, particularly around the greens, when I played it in July last year.

The same couldn't be said for Pebble, where it was a lot softer and no run at all.

[Stephen Davis]

I have never had the privilege of playing Cypress Point, nor is it likely that I ever will (maybe that is my only criticism ). But, as far as the routing goes, I have spent a lot of time looking and reading about the design of the course, and I believe it to be a course that is as close to perfection as we are likely to see. That being said, the most frequent critism I have seen of the course is some people seem to find then18th out of place. Any thoughts on the 18th?

[Will Lozier]

I have never had the privilege of playing Cypress Point, nor is it likely that I ever will (maybe that is my only criticism ). But, as far as the routing goes, I have spent a lot of time looking and reading about the design of the course, and I believe it to be a course that is as close to perfection as we are likely to see. That being said, the most frequent criticism I have seen of the course is some people seem to find then18th out of place. Any thoughts on the 18th?

Stephen,

It IS as close to perfection as you presume!  Search for previous threads of which I am sure there are on #18.  I loved it because what others refer to as"out of character", I choose to call it unique in that it asks of you a tee shot you've not had to hit up until then and an approach you've likely not had to hit.  I doubled it my first time around for a 79...and thought it was a neat hole, definitely unlike the previous seventeen. 

Cheers

[Stephen Davis]

I have never had the privilege of playing Cypress Point, nor is it likely that I ever will (maybe that is my only criticism ). But, as far as the routing goes, I have spent a lot of time looking and reading about the design of the course, and I believe it to be a course that is as close to perfection as we are likely to see. That being said, the most frequent criticism I have seen of the course is some people seem to find then18th out of place. Any thoughts on the 18th?

Stephen,

It IS as close to perfection as you presume!  Search for previous threads of which I am sure there are on #18.  I loved it because what others refer to as"out of character", I choose to call it unique in that it asks of you a tee shot you've not had to hit up until then and an approach you've likely not had to hit.  I doubled it my first time around for a 79...and thought it was a neat hole, definitely unlike the previous seventeen. 

Cheers

Will,

I am glad to hear you confirming what my thoughts are about the course. I think this is a great perspective to have. I will definitely check out the other threads.

[Rich Goodale]

I think this thread makes the finding of Raynor's routing all the more important.

Patrick:

How many times have you played Cypress point?

When was the last time you played it?

 Brian

The reason Mr. Mucci hasn't responded to your second question is because the last time Pat played CPC was with Raynor (the young Tom Paul was their caddy).

As for the question at hand, Cypress has many imperfections, some of them indescribeably exquisite, which is one of the main reasons why it is so great.

Rich

[Kalen Braley]

I'm surprised 18 gets all the attention for being the "worst" hole at CPC.  It requires a thoughtful drive and a well struck approach to have a chance at par.  The green is wicked cool, undulating, and sits on one of the best parts of the property.

I always felt #10 was the least interesting and not up to the calibur of the rest of the holes.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Joel I agree with you on the course playing too wet if that is your conditioning point. I am not sure the type of turf is the deal as much as the amount of water it gets. You know or should know being from the Bay area that water and access to water is a complex issue. It is hard to get clubs to take less than they believe they need in a given year. I used to know the answer from time with the super but my chemo soaked mind has forgotten the details of CPC.  I am amazed you would say you have played it more than anyone on here when there are people on here that live in PB/area and play there as often as they liked each week over a long period of time.

[David_Elvins]

Other than Pebble Beach, does Cypress Point have the least strategic green complexes of any top 10/20/50 course? 

[Kyle Henderson]

Other than Pebble Beach, does Cypress Point have the least strategic green complexes of any top 10/20/50 course? 

Dave, base on my sinlge play of each, I'd say that is a trick question (or was it in jest?).

Both have plenty of strategies to their greens. Pebble's may be on the small side, but their slopes affect play all of the way back to the tee on many holes. For example, on 9 and 10, a premium is put on placing drives that finish near the right side so the right-sloping greens are oriented to hold the approaches. The 14th green allows a long, running approach up the low/right shelf or a shorter pitch over the fronting bunker on the high/left terrace.

Cypress has grens flush with false fronts, subtle tiering for pin placments, etc. Take 9 for example: right pin = thoughts of driver; left pin= long-iron wedge and wedge.

[David Bartman]

How much do you guys factor beauty into your personal ratings of a golf course?

I think CPC is a tremendous work of art, but has more than a few quirky shots and is clearly overrated ( I hate the national and international ratings ) for simply its golf course.  It has a ton of fantastic history and maybe the most beautiful course in the world. 

I for one, discount beauty in my evaluations, I ask myself where I would put this course if I dropped it in the middle of Iowa.   

[Tyler Kearns]

David,

I don't think it is wise to discount the beauty of the surrounds and setting of a golf course when evaluating it's architecture. Siting tees to take advantage of beautiful vistas or aligning greens with distant landmarks or mountain peaks is golf architecture, and one of the tools a golf course designer has at their disposal to make the round more enjoyable, memorable, exhilarating etc. Would the stretch of #15-#17 at Cypress be as memorable if the ocean were replaced by manufactured ponds, or does the sound of the crashing waves and seals add to the experience? You can't separate the golf course from it's environment, because that which immediately surrounds it adds or detracts from the overall experience.

If a site has beautiful surrounds, a golf architect would be doing their client a disservice by not appropriating those surrounds to make the golf experience better. 

TK

[David Bartman]

TK,

I think taking advantage of the natural terrain is an important attribute to consider when evaluation a golf courses architecture.  However, for me beauty has nothing to do with the architecture itself.   

Let me ask you this ... If 15-17 at CPC were just god awful holes, ( FWIW I think 15 and 16 are terrific ) you would still hear seals and see the ocean, does that make them good holes? 

To me it makes them terrible holes, located in a terrific environment.   

I was a player and will always look at the golf course from a play-ability and fairness angle first and foremost.   For the average golfer, the hole really doesn't matter that much, they cannot play the hole properly as the GCA intended , and therefore the beauty should play a large part in their enjoyment.  However, when determining what the best golf courses are, why should natural setting have such a large impact on one's decision?   

Carnoustie isn't even close to as beautiful as CPC but in my opinion it is a far superior golf course.