Cypress Point criticism ?

[Kevin Pallier]

I was speaking to someone recently and they said that despite being a great golf Cypress Point has its deficiencies - one of those being too many dogleg right holes.

A valid point or not ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kevin,

I am surpised at the number of Tour Pros who think Cypress is deficient strategically and challenge wise.  Hadn't heard the comparison of dogleg right and left holes, though.  Mostly length, and greens like 8.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I wonder what type of ball flight they have... 
Do they consider 16 a dogleg right?
The fairways are so big very few don't have a straight path to the green
18 is the hole most consider weak and also most doglegged.
8 is a dogleg too, but that is a cool ass hole and sets up 9, which is worth all the dogleg rights you could ask for
There are more rights then lefts, depending on how you count, just barely.
And there are still lefts - this sounds like they are asking for a rule of rights = lefts - which is just silly - as Tom would say
So, not a valid point for my enjoyment of the course
Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was speaking to someone recently and they said that despite being a great golf Cypress Point has its deficiencies - one of those being too many dogleg right holes.

Kevin,

Has the person making the comment played CPC ?

Doesn't the terrain play a significant role in determining the configuration of the holes ?

I've never heard of that particular criticism of CPC and I never considered the configuration of the holes as an architectural negative.

I might consider it an architectural negative on a flat piece of land, like at Adios, but not at CPC.


A valid point or not ?

[Tom_Doak]

Do they also think Ballybunion is deficient because it has too many doglegs to the left?

(Had anyone else even noticed?)

No one who dislikes Cypress Point should ever be bothered to go back.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Do they also think Ballybunion is deficient because it has too many doglegs to the left?

(Had anyone else even noticed?)

No one who dislikes Cypress Point should ever be bothered to go back.

Tom,

They shouldn't be allowed to go back

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I am happy to live and let live, and let them dislike it.  The last thing I want to see when I get back out there again, is somebody in front of me who doesn't think it is one of the great places on earth.

[Dan King]

I've never understood the desire to be universally loved. To me golf course architect is an art, and the best art will always have legitimate detractors.  Great art should touch you in ways that are very personal, and therefore, can not reach everyone. It doesn't make the critics wrong or poor critics, it is just the piece of art didn't touch them as it did others.

I've always been a big fan of cool jazz.  However, for some strange reason, Miles Davis doesn't do it for me. I can't really explain why, but his music doesn't work for me. Perhaps I first heard his music when in a funk, or maybe it is something else. Many people, whose opinions I respect, love Miles Davis, and I know with my taste in music he should be high on my list of favorites, but he is not.

Golf courses are very similar. I don't like Spyglass Hill. I've played it probably a dozen times, and it just doesn't do anything for me. I know plenty of people who think Spyglass is the Cat's Meow, but I'm not one of them.  I'm sure it has something to do with not fitting my game, but there are plenty of other courses that don't fit my game, that I still appreciate.

The problem with golf architecture is it both wants to be an art form and for business reasons, universally popular. Art gets in trouble when it goes for the popular rather than the artistic.

Cheers,
Dan King

The most beautiful of all courses we have made is Cypress Point, and at the same time it is also the most difficult of all our courses. When we constructed Cypress Point we expected we should be snowed under by hostile criticism.
 --Alister MacKenzie

[Will Lozier]

I was speaking to someone recently and they said that despite being a great golf Cypress Point has its deficiencies - one of those being too many dogleg right holes.

A valid point or not ?

#2, 5, 6, 9(?) all bend a little to the left...but, a propensity to favor a fade (?) does nothing to change my mind that it is the greatest golf course I'll ever play!  It was a spiritual experience both times!

Cheers

[Tom_Doak]

I would agree that Cypress Point likely favors a fade, because Dr. MacKenzie hit a fade, it's probable that ALL of his courses favor a fade to some degree.  Nearly all golf course architects are guilty of this -- it's pretty hard for the guy who is trying to visualize the golf course to deliberately NOT visualize how he would play it himself.

I suppose we'll have experts for each various architect insist to us that their hero never did such a thing, but they'd better give a lot of examples before I'm buying it.

[Phil McDade]

I would agree that Cypress Point likely favors a fade, because Dr. MacKenzie hit a fade, it's probable that ALL of his courses favor a fade to some degree.  Nearly all golf course architects are guilty of this -- it's pretty hard for the guy who is trying to visualize the golf course to deliberately NOT visualize how he would play it himself.

I suppose we'll have experts for each various architect insist to us that their hero never did such a thing, but they'd better give a lot of examples before I'm buying it.

Wasn't that the criticism of Jack's redo of the 5th at Pebble Beach -- that he built a par 3 that favored his type of game and shot?

[Tom_Doak]

I would agree that Cypress Point likely favors a fade, because Dr. MacKenzie hit a fade, it's probable that ALL of his courses favor a fade to some degree.  Nearly all golf course architects are guilty of this -- it's pretty hard for the guy who is trying to visualize the golf course to deliberately NOT visualize how he would play it himself.

I suppose we'll have experts for each various architect insist to us that their hero never did such a thing, but they'd better give a lot of examples before I'm buying it.

Wasn't that the criticism of Jack's redo of the 5th at Pebble Beach -- that he built a par 3 that favored his type of game and shot?

Phil:

It's one thing to build a hole which favors a fade, and another to build a hole where a high fade is the only way you can get the ball to hold the green.  I think it is inevitable that Jack will do some of the former, as nearly all of us do; but it's only if it gets to the latter that it becomes a problem.

[Matthew Mollica]

What is the standard shot shape in your own golf game Tom?

[Tom_Doak]

What is the standard shot shape in your own golf game Tom?

Matthew:

Can't you tell by playing some of my courses? 

I will let you guess first.  But nobody who has played golf with me should chime in before Matthew guesses.

[Matthew Mollica]

I suspect it is a fade, but Tom,
there's such diversity in your designs, and even handed approach to dog-legs, fairway cants,
and green orientation, it's not easy to discern a bias 

MM

[Bill Seitz]

What is the standard shot shape in your own golf game Tom?

Matthew:

Can't you tell by playing some of my courses? 

I will let you guess first.  But nobody who has played golf with me should chime in before Matthew guesses.

I've played with you twice and I honestly can't remember.  The first course that comes to my mind is Lost Dunes and that seems to have more right to left tee shots than the other way around, though the par threes don't exactly set up that way.  I'd still guess right to left. 

[Greg Tallman]

A low running shot perhaps? 

[Tom_Doak]

Three guesses and no one is 100% sure, so I guess I'm doing okay.

I think my designs tend to favor a fade, because I grew up playing a fade -- so I am always looking to see if I need to counter that bias when we're out building our courses.  However, after a couple of years on construction projects building up my raking and shoveling muscles in my early 20's, I developed a big hook for a few years, and have only recently begun to go back to the old fade.

As a result, I think my courses are reasonably playable and forgiving for those who shape shots in either direction.  But also, as a result, I am a lousy golfer nowadays!  I have to go out and start playing to see which shape it's going to be that day, and then just try to work with it.  Today, it was mostly a hard pull with my irons.

Enough about MY biases though; I'm hardly the only one.  What about Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw?

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

If it makes you feel any better, I did a mental exercise and thought of all the holes I've played on the courses you designed and I couldn't find any design bias....other than allowing/encouraging/promoting the ground game on many of the holes, regardless of shot shape.

JNs courses certainly seem to have the most bias in that respect, although The Idaho Club seems to break that mold a bit.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

What is the standard shot shape in your own golf game Tom?

The answer!

V for Vendetta- Golf's most beloved v. T. Doak at Sebonack!

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25317.0.html

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan King,

The first five (5) holes at SH are hard not to like, after # 5, I can see how some might feel it's just another North Carolina like course.

[Bill_McBride]

I don't see a draw vs fade bias in the C&C courses I've played, but I have noticed a strategic theme: it's better to be short in front than to miss sideways hole high.  I really felt this at Austin Golf Club. 

[BCrosby]

Taking Cuscowilla as an example, the bias off the tee is:

1 - draw
2 - draw
3 - draw
4 - fade
5 - depends
6 - draw
7 - draw
8 - fade
9 - fade
10 - fade
11 - neutral
12 - neutral
13 - draw
14 - probably neutral
15 - neutral
16 - draw
17 - draw
18 - draw

A lot of draw holes.

I hadn't noticed before doing the above, but C&C bunched their fade holes holes (all but one) in the middle of the round. Maybe it explains why I always feel wrong-footed on those holes?  Is alternating shot shapes hole by hole an easier adjustment than getting into and out of a groove set up by a run of similarly biased holes?

Bob

[Michael Goldstein]

This thing is off topic.

Cypress Point criticism: is it too soft? Is it over manicured, particularly the bunkering?

[Bill_McBride]

Criticizing Cypress Point - especially if you haven't played it! - is a bit like suggesting the Mona Lisa might be a bit cross eyed.