Best Hole and Least Exciting Hole

[Tom_Doak]

For all who got a tour of the new course at Dismal River this week:

Which did you think would be the best hole on the course?

Which hole did you find least exciting [with the understanding that some were more easily understood than others]?

Discuss.

[Sam Morrow]

Best hole will be on the back, either of the par 3's, the short par 4, heck just about anything back there. As of right now I think 1 might be the least interesting but don't hold me to that until I see the finished product.

[Mac Plumart]

9 looks like it will be tremendous.  I can't wait to play it.

1 looks the most bland, but I like to be eased into the round...so that is fine with me.

[Tyler Kearns]

Tom,

Like Brian, I was very impressed with the 14th hole, and what I thought makes it so good and unique is the angle at which the two protruding knobs on either side of the fairway are approached from the tee. Depending on the pin position, one needs to position their drive accordingly to avoid being blind and get a better angle into the hole.

One thing that struck me was the similarity of the two one-shotters on the front side, No. 3 & 5. Both are quite long (220+), with a deep, impressive (understatement of the year in regards to No. 3) bunker to the right, and play at somewhat similar orientations. Individually, they are good golf holes, but perhaps as a pair are too similar.

Overall, I think the golf course will be another hit, and will present a very different golf course than the Nicklaus design at Dismal River, which will prove beneficial to the club as they will now have two distinct courses, appealing to a wider audience of future members.

Thanks again for the tour,
TK

[Richard Choi]

I think most people will mention the 14th due to its length and beauty. However, I am looking forward to playing the 17th the most. The blind drive, unbelievable movements in the fairway all leading down to the (what I hope to be an interesting) green captivated me from the first look.

I am still not sure about the short par 3, 16th. I think that is one of those holes that you have to play to enjoy.

[Cory Lewis]

Best:  16, par 3- I think 18 has the potential to be a tremendous finishing hole as well.

Least exciting:  8, hard to explain, just think I've seen the hole before.

[Stephen Davis]

Tom,

Here we're my favorite holes by par

Par 3- 16th hole. I was standing in the tee box thinking I want to play this hole right now. It is going to be a great start to three really great finishing holes.
Par 4- I have a hard time choosing between 14 or 17. Both of those just look incredible to me. I loved standing up on top of the hill on 17 and having you tell us to aim over this tree and then explaining exactly how our ball was going to react. I could see that exact shot in my mind.
Par 5- I would have to say the second par 5 on the front (I am sorry I can't remember what number that was)

I agree with the others that 1 is the least exciting, however, I like starting off a round gently and I think it will do just that.

[Cliff Walston]

No one seems to be mentioning 2.  I thought it was a really cool hole up and over the hill around that huge bunker, playing back down to the green.  I think it may get overlooked because we all have seen what comes next...

Like everyone, I think 14 is also really good. In addition to the dunes angle feature, I like the fact that as you come down to 13 green, you get a peak of the river portion of the property and feel like you are about to leave the sandhills portion of the course.  But then you turn left and head back into the dunes for one more hole before coming back into the river portion. 

As for a hole that was less exciting, I would go with 5.  As mentioned earlier, it is similar to 3 in my mind and comes so close in proximity. 

[Mark Smolens]

I really liked the three hole stretch from 5 thru 7 (not sure of the numbers?). Short 4, long -- really long -- 3, and another short 4. The par 4s while potentially reachable for big hitters look like they could be trouble unless extreme accuracy is included with the length, and then there's a par-3 that many will need driver to reach, especially into the prevailing wind. Cool sequence of holes. I'm also looking forward to seeing a finished 10th hole, and what kind of bridge gets built over the ravine.

I agree with Sam that the "least interesting" designation should probably await the opportunity to view the finished product.

I'm also looking forward to more pix from Jager as the construction process continues. . . now that I've walked the site, the photos will have even greater meaning and context.

[Michael George]

I think 1 is a nice, gentle opener and a perfect start to the round - it does not need to be exciting.  2 is a great dogleg left to a higher point on the property and is a good hole. 3 has been discussed at length on this site and the large blowout to the right and layup to the left will be very exciting.    The next several involve the unique loop of the front 9.  Such loop from 4-8 is so unique that the golfer will love it and it will be a frequent talking point after the round.  It is just so St. Andrews like to have a loop of that nature where you can see what other groups are doing (potentially in your outing).  Lastly, 9 is one of the prettiest holes on the course with the infinity green toward little horn.

Likewise, 14-18 is such a strong and picturesque finish that I think all will be viewed as very exciting.  14 is just too cool with the mounds and raised green.  15 is a nice connection to 16-18, which may be one of the strongest finishes that I have ever seen.  As such, I think 18 is the most exciting hole.

With all of that being said, I think the holes from 10-13 have the greatest risk at "being lost" when people talk about the course.  I think they are all fine golf holes, but when surrounded by the aforementioned holes, they just won't be discussed much.  As such, I think 12 is the least exciting hole.

It reminds me of Sand Hills in that regard.  Holes 1-4 and 7-9 are so exciting that maybe the 5 & 6 get overlooked.  Likewise, #10 and 13-18 are so strong that 11 and 12 get lost a little.  

That I would compare Dismal Doak to Sand Hills tells you how much I think of Dismal Doak.

[Bruce Wellmon]

I liked 13. You could see the entire hole from the tee, but you didn't play the direct route from point a to point b. You had to play left of the big mound, and then a dogleg right down the hill with, I believe, the buffalo run in the background. I hope I remembered that correctly. #1, I appreciated, eases you into the round, because, once you get to #2, it's on.

[Wade Schueneman]

I am surprised that 6 has not garnered more attention.  It looks like it could be a beautiful (but dangerous) little par 4.

[Tom_Doak]

Not so surprised that #1 has garnered the least excitement ... even though I think it's a good par five.  I've said here before that I don't really like to start a course with a par five, but I've done it again!

I am very surprised at the choices for best hole so far.  Keep them coming!

P.S. to Cory:  On Tuesday morning before I left, while working on eliminating the old maintenance road, we blew up the green you all saw on #8 and extended it into the swale on the right, so that it's tucked in behind the hill on the right more.  I think you'll like it better now. 

P.P.S.  To the inevitable question -- I've only torn up a green I had already planted once before in my career.  We just had so much dead space behind the green once it was decided to move the road, that the right thing to do was different than it was when we built the green in April, with the road still there.  We did the re-shaping in about an hour and a half, and didn't even have to change the irrigation, so all it will cost is to re-hydroseed the green and whatever we spent on three weeks of grow-in for the older version.   

[David_Elvins]

To the inevitable question -- I've only torn up a green I had already planted once before in my career.     

The inevitable question is now "What was the previous green you tore up?"

[Tom_Doak]

To the inevitable question -- I've only torn up a green I had already planted once before in my career.     

The inevitable question is now "What was the previous green you tore up?"

I had to fix the back tier on the 4th green at Lost Dunes.  The contractor insisted on planting it before I could get back to see it.  I had told my associate, Tom Mead, to change it a bit on my previous visit, but he zigged where I meant him to zag -- he made the back tier slope more away from the line of play!  It was such a severe green already that I couldn't let that go unfixed.  I knew I would have to defend the green at any rate, but I wanted it to be precisely as designed so that at least it was defensible.

[Eric Smith]

So many to choose from. 6 was my favorite before construction began. It was just there waiting for a gang mower. Now it is even more impressive with the bunkers cut into the side hill fronting the entrance to the green, not to mention the center line bunker that guards the landing area, demanding you make a decision. Still,the hole that impressed me the most on this visit was 4. I don't recall thinking all that much of it on my two prior visits, but now that it is shaped in and bunkered...holy cow. I met the young man who dug those bunkers and told him and anyone else that would listen that the fourth hole is my new favorite. Love that little devil of a bunker behind the green.

Another special one when all is said and done is 15, when the grass gets cut short to reveal all the wrinkles and moguls short and left of the green. Sure to be one of the most photogenic holes in the late afternoon with all the shadows - akin to pics you see of Paraparaumu Beach. Just awesome.

Least favorite for me I'm guessing would be 12 only because I really haven't studied it enough. It will have a really cool bank feeding balls down from the right hand side of the green (I think). I love 1, can't call it anything but a darn good opener. The guys have really made it something when a year ago it wasn't all that.

[Chris Johnston]

I don't have a least favorite but I love the "backdrop" and "window" holes.  I've never see better backdrops and the holes offer exemplary variety.

Backdrop holes:

#2 tees to the blowout and turns up the hollow.

# 7 tees to the same blowout as #2.  Second shot framed by the blowout.

# 8 framed by "Little Horseshoe".

#9 tees to "Big Horseshoe" and turns to Little Horseshoe with an eternity green.

#13 approach turns hard to the "Buffalo Run" and the epic steeps.

#15 returns to the Buffalo Run.

#16 straddles the Buffalo Run.

#17 finished to Little Horseshoie.

#18 has the Clubhouse as a backdrop and finishes hard against the Dismal at Big Horseshoe.

Window holes:  (a hole where there is both a hill and an open window space behind the green).

#3
#11
#12
#15

Love the drivable par 4's, depending on wind.  Lots of choices to make.

[JNC Lyon]

I would say 1 as the least memorable, but I think the centerline bunker on the second shot will be dynamite.  7 is not a standout hole for me, so I will pick that one.

15 is the one I am looking forward to playing the most.  The greensite is incredible, but the moguls in the landing area are the stunner here.

[Stephen Davis]

I am glad that everyone has reminded me of the moguls on 15. I had forgotten them and they are the most compelling feature of 15. There is a serious stretch of great holes on this course, both on the back and the front.

[Matt Bosela]

P.S. to Cory:  On Tuesday morning before I left, while working on eliminating the old maintenance road, we blew up the green you all saw on #8 and extended it into the swale on the right, so that it's tucked in behind the hill on the right more.  I think you'll like it better now. 

Wasn't it on the 8th green during the tour where I asked if you felt you had to restrain yourself when determining green sizes due to the grand scale of the property?

Hopefully that was just a coincidence!

[Tom_Doak]

P.S. to Cory:  On Tuesday morning before I left, while working on eliminating the old maintenance road, we blew up the green you all saw on #8 and extended it into the swale on the right, so that it's tucked in behind the hill on the right more.  I think you'll like it better now. 

Wasn't it on the 8th green during the tour where I asked if you felt you had to restrain yourself when determining green sizes due to the grand scale of the property?

Hopefully that was just a coincidence!

Matt:

I think you're right.  But, we haven't made the green bigger, we are shifting it over to the right.  We'll have to roundup the left third of the green and reseed it to fescue.

It was actually my friend Ray Schueneman who indirectly inspired the change by noting how cool the flag looked over there, when it was really in the hidden bunker just behind the hill.  But, he got me thinking about it again ... I had wanted the green to go into the swale in the first place, but was given the impression that it was too steep to go over that way.

[Michael George]

Tom:

Any chance you mention your favorite hole and the hole that you are still thinking about tinkering with?

Got to ask since you started the thread!

[Doug Siebert]

I think I'd have to go with 15 as the one I'm looking forward to playing the most.  It will probably take several plays to figure out the best way to play it, and on that green and surrounds it'll likely depend a lot on pin position.  Something about it made me think it will end up being one of the type of hole I like best - the ones where there are certain pin positions where the correct play is to knock it in the rough (for the angle, or for getting better runout on the pitch, or both)  Something about that type of counterintuitive strategy has always intrigued me.

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - this is interesting. You must've believed that you'd find these answers instructive and useful or you wouldn't have started the thread. But then, how does the response/feedback you're getting in this context (from golfers who have only walked a course that is still not open for play) compare for you -- in terms of usefulness -- with the response/feedback you'd get in a different context (from golfers who have played, probably more than once, a finished/open course)?  For me, the latter 'experiment' would seem to be much more fruitful and productive; but I'm guessing you don't see it that way (?)

Peter

[Sean_A]

From the description, #13 sounds the most interesting.  Is there a natural pull to play toward the flag and is there a sliver an option to be rewarded for doing so?  How long is the hole?  Does anyone have a pic of it?

Ciao