[Daryn_Soldan]

Chris,

As we discussed, I agree with you on #3 from the back of 2 green... I liked it enough that I snapped a photo.

[Mac Plumart]

Wow!

Great photo!

[Jason Hines]

Have not played it for 15 years, always was in good shape and was probably hands down the best course in the area until the sand hills boom hit.

Who designed it? From the road it really looked good, really didn't look like any other course I'd seen in the area.

David Gill.

http://www.nebgolf.org/club_directories/lochland.html

[JNC Lyon]

Chris,

As we discussed, I agree with you on #3 from the back of 2 green... I liked it enough that I snapped a photo.

The 3rd hole at Dismal River is a "Short" hole.  Discuss!

[Eric Smith]

Chris,

As we discussed, I agree with you on #3 from the back of 2 green... I liked it enough that I snapped a photo.

Choked down baby cut 2 wood all day long.

[JNC Lyon]

Let's talk a bit about the 14th at Dismal.  Sam, Cory, and Mr. Sheehy have all criticized the hole a bit, and I'll try to give the hole a bit of a defense.  To me, there are some legitimate tradeoffs on the tee shot.  The comfortable shot off the tee is to drive down the left hand side.  However, a tee shot on this line will hit into the side of the hill and come up well short of an ideal distance into the green.  Unless you absolutely murder a tee shot down the left, you will be left with a long second shot off a hanging lie, albeit with a decent angle into the green 

If you drive down the right, the more awkward line off the tee, you can catch a speed slot and end up at the bottom of the hill.  From the bottom of the hill, you will have under 150 yards into the green from a flat lie.  For most good players, this is no more than a 7-iron shot.  If you are gutsy enough to drive down the right, you are rewarded with a flatter lie and a shorter shot in.

Moreover, there is plenty of room around the 14th green on the left hand side.  The bunker on the right is penal, no doubt, but there is yards of room left, meaning that a left miss with a long iron is left with a very reasonable up and down.  The green site might be unreasonable on a typical 440-yarder, but the downhill nature of the tee shot and the elevation means this hole plays much shorter, and there is a proportionate amount of room to miss both off the tee and around the green.

Is 14 the best hole on the course?  Not by a long shot, and frankly, 12 through 14 is the weakest stretch on the golf course (though I love the current 13th green).  Yet, despite that, I wouldn't call 14 an "abortion" by any stretch.

[Mark Saltzman]

Would 14 be better as a par-5 played from the back-tees?

[Michael George]

John:  I disagree that 12-14 is the weakest stretch.

#12 is a strong par 5.  That front pin is devlish as I hit too far up the backstop and rolled off the front of the green.

#13 may be the coolest hole on the course when the new green is used as players will have to check the green before playing it and the location of the green will allow for a downhill approach in a sea of uphill approaches (other than 9, 11 and 17).   Plus, the existing green to the right is one of the most fun greens on the course.  Great hole.

#14 has a great green complex - one of the best on the course.  The drive is a little boring as it all collects down in the bowl.  One change that I would make to the hole would be to extend the fairway on the left side (very small width - say 50 feet) so that a ball could stay up there instead of going into the bowl.  That would be true risk as you could just accept the drive into the bowl or try and test the rough to the left to stay on top of the bowl for an easier 2nd shot.

However, we are splitting hairs.  Dismal is great!   As soon as I have more time in my life, I am joining (my wife informed me yesterday when I got home that week long golf trips don't work for her with 5 young kids).  Hope it is as good as a value then as now!

[Sam Morrow]

14 Should be a drivable par 4. If you miss it short right you are in the fairway about 4 stories below the green. Cory has pictures of me hitting shots from down there, it's a cool shot. Here is my rule of thumb, if it's a cool green site and there are concerns about the hole just make it a drivable par 4.

[Cory Lewis]

Moreover, there is plenty of room around the 14th green on the left hand side.  The bunker on the right is penal, no doubt, but there is yards of room left, meaning that a left miss with a long iron is left with a very reasonable up and down. 

It's true there is plenty of room on the left but if the pin is on the right then getting up and down is not reasonable at all due to the slopes in the green.  Chipping from the left, if you go 5 feet past a right side pin you catch a slope and end up down in the rough.  Of course with a left side pin the hole is much more reasonable but you can't put the pin on the left side every time.

[Doug Siebert]

Re: The 9th.

As a rule of thumb, I'm agin a framing bunker. There are plenty of aiming features on the horizon that should suffice.

In my novice opinion, I think the problem lies at the teeing ground. I say that because the forward tee is perfect. The farther back tees are where this apparent problem exists.

If there's to be any more changes to the 9th, I believe this is where it would do the most good.

When I played the back tees on Thursday afternoon, I thought the view was better from there than it was from the next set up where we played the tourney.  It was the first time I actually understood where the hell I should be aiming on that hole.  It's just different enough that it makes it obvious where you want to go.  Last year I think I was in the left rough every single time, even when I thought I was hitting it where I was supposed to!

[Doug Siebert]

Would 14 be better as a par-5 played from the back-tees?

Dunno about that.  Where is the bogey player supposed to lay up for that third shot?  Hitting a blind wedge from 60 yards away straight uphill over tons of sand could only be made more terrifying for the average bogey player if there was water behind the green


Re: Sam's idea about making it a driveable par 4.  We played one round from the next set up during last year's 5th major, I think it played a little over 300 yards.  It was fun taking a rip at it from there (IIRC I yanked my tee shot and ended up in the gunk left of the green and was damn lucky to make par) but I don't think the hole would be improved if those were the regular tees.  This is just one of those holes that is going to be hard for guys who don't hit it as far/high due to the basic design.

[Adam Clayman]

Doug, I suspect my opinion is based not on the look, but on the angle. Also, from farther back, the cross bunker is not an issue, but from forward, both it, and the ditch named for the shaper, are.

[Brandon Urban]

I didn't mind the hole from the square tees. I do think it would be really cool as a short 4, though.
Twice I hit a good drive and proceeded to shank an iron to just short and right of the big bunker complex. That is both a fun and horrifying shot to play. As a short hole, I think the challenge of trying to keep one up on top to the left or be faced with that shot would be a great addition to an already fun golf course.

[JNC Lyon]

Cory and Sam,

Points taken on the severity of the green complex.  However, I don't think an up-and-down from the left is unreasonable, because there is nothing but short grass between you and the hole.  One round I hit it on the left side of the green to a back right pin and made it from 70 feet.  Another round I missed it left (on my third shot, actually), and hit it stone dead from about 80 feet.  The key is taking the correct club (usually a putter).  EITHER WAY, I think there is a bit of a difference between saying "the green is a little too severe" and saying "the hole is an abortion." 

I do like the drivable par four idea as an option, especially since (a) there is no slope and rating for the golf course and (b) the 13th might become a long four, meaning the last 6 will be a death march.

[Mac Plumart]

Please don't make 13 a long 4.  It is a great hole as it is now.

[Michael George]

Please don't make 13 a long 4.  It is a great hole as it is now.

I agree fully.  I think when DR is using both greens it will be the best hole on a golf course with a lot of great holes. 

[Doug Siebert]

13 as a long 4 would be a beast to that narrow green on the right, especially when the wind is blowing (from any direction)  I think it could be a pretty damn cool hole as a long 4 to the left green, however.  While I wouldn't characterize a long 13th with the current 14-18 as a "death march", I see where John is coming from when you contrast the front and back nine - and if it's a death march, I'd include #12, which can be a bit brutal into a stiff wind!  If you wanted a driveable 4 on the back, I'd shorten #16 a bit.  About 40 yards closer the tee shot would remind me a bit of #14 at TPC Deere Run (where this week's tournament is being played)  Perhaps with too little risk to go with the reward, however, as the main difficulty of going for the green would be the blindness of the tee shot.

Anyway, if you did 13 with the long 4 to the left green you'd want to create some viable fairway to the left of the bunker, making it more of a centerline bunker, and increased length would bring it into play, especially into the wind.  Then you would choose whether to play a safe drive up the right side for an approach that would be somewhat blind, or take the narrower route to the left, going for extra distance on the drive and more visibility on the approach at the expense of a perhaps less than level lie.

I guess you'd need some indication on the teebox or somewhere what green you were playing to, since it might be difficult to tell from so far away.  Of course Chris would probably stick a flag in both greens for the 5th major as he does on #10, and we can play to the shorter right green on our tee shot and change our minds if we hook

[Sven Nilsen]

Sam:

Hoping you might provide a bit more color on your thoughts about Wild Horse.  Not looking for a comparison to any other courses in the area, just a bit more detail on the playing characteristics, various holes, favorite shots on the course, etc.

Another poster has mentioned that they did not like the narrow strip of mid-length rough between the fairway and the high grass.  I don't have an opposition to it, at it serves as a means of slowing down the slightly offline drive before rolling into a much more difficult lie (on what are already very wide fairways).  I see it more of a half shot penalty than a full shot.  It probably also is a lot easier to maintain on a public course budget than an wider swath of intermediate rough.

Sven

[Sam Morrow]

Sam:

Hoping you might provide a bit more color on your thoughts about Wild Horse.  Not looking for a comparison to any other courses in the area, just a bit more detail on the playing characteristics, various holes, favorite shots on the course, etc.

Another poster has mentioned that they did not like the narrow strip of mid-length rough between the fairway and the high grass.  I don't have an opposition to it, at it serves as a means of slowing down the slightly offline drive before rolling into a much more difficult lie (on what are already very wide fairways).  I see it more of a half shot penalty than a full shot.  It probably also is a lot easier to maintain on a public course budget than an wider swath of intermediate rough.

Sven

Sven,

 That narrow strip obviously didn't have any influence on me as I don't even recall thinking anything of it. It also probably helps that I drove the ball well at Wild Horse, I don't think I missed any fairways.

As for favorite holes on the course I will give you a few but I think with more rounds under different wind conditions my opinion would change. I really liked 1, it was a good opening hole, it was playing short the day I played but I like the fact there is plenty of width off that tee (like all of the course) and gives you a chance to get out of the gates well but if you miss it some you won't be dead. There aren't many worse feelings that getting another ball out of your bag after one shot.

I thought 4 was a neat par 3, I made the mistake of getting aggressive to a right pin and put it just over the green.

I really liked 6, the par 5. I don't recall any green side bunkers but was a very interesting green complex. The pin was on the left and tugged my wedge and watched it roll around until it came to rest in the chipping area. I left myself a very tough shot but it was a really fun shot!

13 Is a cool par 3 but played like a par 4 that day. I made the mistake of leaving it short left in the bunkers, not a good spot.

I was wondering if anyone knows who has the house on the back, I can't remember I think it was off 15, with the Wild Horse logo on it?

[Brandon Urban]

My friend and I played Wildhorse on Thursday before heading to Dismal. I absolutely loved it. WH is a course that I could play every day for the rest of my life and be completely happy.

I never noticed the strip of rough, either. I may have actually been in it a few times and it never crossed my mind that it looked out of place. Maybe it was because I was too busy checking out the great bunkering and fairway movement to even notice.

My favorite hole was #15 (I think), the short par 4. When I got up near the green I was pretty sure that I was playing #14 at Sand Hills. The nasty front bunker, the shallow tilted green, and the even nastier back bunker, to me, was as close as you can get to SH. Instead of a short par 5, it's a short par 4 but a ton of fun to play. I can imagine there is some ping ponging back and forth between those bunkers on occasion.

I also really liked all of the par 3's. They seemed to all play a little differently. Good stuff.

[Kyle Henderson]

The grass lines have changed tremendously in the last 4 years.

[Sean_A]

Mac Plumart is spot-on regarding the 9th. The extreme right side off the tee is a sucker play for the longer hitter who wants to get home in two at all costs.  A new bunker over there would only serve as an alignment aid off the tee.  The absence of an aiming point off the tee coupled with the extreme width is the hole's best feature.  For all but the biggest hitter it is a legitimate three shot hole masquerading as reachable in two - no small feat for today's architecture.

Don't know the hole, will probably never meet it, but this description makes it sound an ideal par 5.

Ciao

[Sven Nilsen]

Followup question on Awarii Dunes:

I stumbled on Mark Saltzman's AD photo thread from a year ago (http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48784.0.html) and noted that the primary criticisms of the course had to do with the rough and the grow in issues.  It sounds like a year later there hasn't been much improvement on these fronts.  You did make the passing statement that the course was interesting.  Wondering what you saw that lead to this statement, and what you might make of the course if the conditioning was up to par and the rough thinned out a bit.

[Tom_Doak]

Sven:

Part of thinning the rough out on a new golf course is getting enough people to play it that the foot traffic and searching for balls helps to thin out the grass at the edges.  If the course isn't getting much traffic, then the burden falls on the maintenance staff ... who probably don't have the extra manpower to deal with it if the course isn't getting much traffic.

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