Colwyn Bay GC, Wales - Update: Looks like it's a Colt

[Neil_Crafter]

Also courtesy of Golf's Missing Links website and John Llewellyn, comes this NLE course in Wales, which in adverts declared they had a course designed by the partnership of Colt, Mackenzie & Alison. Which of the partners designed it though? That we don't know - yet. But there is a handbook for this club held in - of all places - The Library of Congress and enquiries have been made, but no answer yet. Hopefully the handbook will say.

Colt was working nearby in Wales according to Paul Turner, and we now know Mackenzie was also in Wales at Rhayader, although the two locations are not especially close.

From John's website for Colwyn Bay:

Founded in 1893, the course was located on Colwyn Heights overlooking Pwllycrochan Woods and the town, and within 15 minutes walk of the station. It was laid out and designed by the well known course architects Colt, Mackenzie & Alison.  The club house was originally the home of John Porter, JP, and was located just off Pen y Bryn Road, Upper Colwyn Bay.

In 1906 it was a 9 hole course, and the professional course record was held by Tom Morris with a score of 36. Visitors’ fees were 2/- a day, 5/- a week and 10/- a month. Country members paid 10/6d. The station at Colwyn Bay was ½ mile away.

By 1914 the course had been extended to 18 holes with hazards consisting of a road, water, sand pit, dykes, bunkers and gorse. Entry fees were £1/1/0. Subs for gents were £2/2/0, ladies and country members paid £1/1/0. There was a membership of 230. Visitors’ fees were 2/- a day and 7/6d a week, increasing during the summer months to 2/6d a day and 10/- a week. Sunday play was allowed without caddies.

In approx 1958 the council bought the site for £10,250 and in 1960 sold it for private house development at a profit to the town of £40,000. The clubhouse was demolished in the 1960s and Taylor’s Pub and Restaurant now stand on the same site.In the club’s last year in 1959, the course still had 18 holes, but membership had declined to 170.

As the CM&A partnership only operated from 1919-23 this dates the work at Colwyn Bay, which I believe was a redesign as John has indicated the course had been extended to 18 holes in 1914.

My guess is that the work is Colt's but of course I am hoping that it was Mac's. Time will tell.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Surely out of the three partners, the most likely to have played the leading role at Colwyn Bay would have been MacKenzie. The North Wales coast is, to all intents and purposes, an extension of North West England - Manchester and Liverpool on sea. As the partnership's 'Man in the North', I would have thought that it fell directly into MacKenzie's territory.





Anyway, if the course only closed in 1959, Mark Rowlinson has probably played it!

[Neil_Crafter]

Library of Congress got back to me today.
They copied one page only of the handbook which had a mention of "Messrs Colt & Alison" and give a date for their work as 1919-20, describing it as reconstruction work.
While not totally clear, it would seem that it is a Colt as I suspected.

[Neil_Crafter]

Duncan
I don't think there was ever much of a geographic separation for who took on which projects, or limited any of the partners. Mackenzie had quite a few London projects which geographically was Alison country. While you might think Mackenzie would be the logical one for a Welsh project, especially one near Liverpool, I think it was more of a case if you brought the project in, then it was yours, regardless of location. Which begs the question why then be in partnership in the first place?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Which begs the question why then be in partnership in the first place?

I can imagine that in the immediate aftermath of the Great War, the apparant security of a partnership made some sense in such uncertain times.

From what we know of MacKenzie's personality however, it is of little surprise that it didn't last for long! Some people (and I include myself here) are not great team players...

[Neil_Crafter]

Yes, agree that the apparent security was what drove these men into partnership, but the reality was that the years from 1919-25 were the busiest in Mackenzie's career. And as you say, his temperament for partnership was probably less than ideal!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark the short club and putting method in the first picture "Look's like it's a Colt" - at least that's the way he putted.

By the time this Club opened he was middle aged so it's not him.  But I can't help wonder if some member's saw, and then adotpted, his method?

[Sean_A]

Duncan
I don't think there was ever much of a geographic separation for who took on which projects, or limited any of the partners. Mackenzie had quite a few London projects which geographically was Alison country. While you might think Mackenzie would be the logical one for a Welsh project, especially one near Liverpool, I think it was more of a case if you brought the project in, then it was yours, regardless of location. Which begs the question why then be in partnership in the first place?

Do you think it was a way to reduce competition between Colt and Dr Mac - thus keeping fees higher - a bit of collusion in the guise of a partnership? 

Ciao

[Neil_Crafter]

Mark - nice pics thanks.

Sean - perhaps there was an element of security in joining forces like this straight after WW1, less competition as you say may have been an objective. Sure would like to have read the partnership agreement. Mackenzie ended up competing with Colt on projects while in partnership which is very odd.