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Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2022, 03:45:30 PM »
Ira, I agree that the mounding and overall green complex on #7 is terrific, and may make up for the overly-treed fairway.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2022, 05:29:31 PM »
Is it sacrilegious to suggest that Jim Urbina can design & build greens better suited to today's game and modern maintenance practices and this generation of top golfers than Dr Mac ever could (or at least did)?  If the greens are to be rebuilt and Jim has been hired to do it, I say give him a completely free hand and be done with it.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2022, 06:43:10 PM »
Jim H,


You are a far better golfer than I, but that knob short left at 7 played havoc with what was a pretty well struck second shot. Five years ago; still remember it.


Peter,


By all accounts, Jim Urbina is a terrific architect and restoration expert. But I do hope that his mandate is to recreate history rather than reimagine it. I have not played as many great courses as many posters, but I have been fortunate to play several. I am hard pressed to think of many green complexes/greens better than Pasatiempo. Somerset Hills, PH2 and maybe Woking and Ballyneal. Pasatiempo's are that good.


Ira

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2022, 06:58:55 PM »
In the last year alone I have played I believe five of what most consider Top 100 courses (several were Top 25 courses) on the planet all with rebuilt greens?  Who else has done the same?  Is this becoming a new trend? 

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2022, 10:20:58 PM »
And still, not one peep about the 11th green at Crystal Downs.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2022, 08:23:05 AM »
Joe,
Can you elaborate about the 11th hole?


An architect named Maxwell (he was pretty good at designing greens 😉) did a course called Southern Hills.  Any comments about those greens?

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2022, 06:41:34 PM »

I'm not sure how fast Pasatiempo keeps the greens on a day-to-day basis, but wouldn't it be prudent to play the course for a year with green speeds at 9 on the stimp and see how things go?  It costs nothing, restores lost hole locations, speeds up play and doesn't mess with the internal contours of Mackenzie's greens.

I believe Doak re-worked the 11th green at Pasatiempo many years ago, keeping the character of the green, but taking some of the tilt out of it.  I am confident Jim Urbina will do a wonderful job and he has a lot of respect for the history of the course.  If winter ever ends in Manitoba, I hope to speak to Jim about the project in the near future while he is working here.


Tyler



Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2022, 07:30:24 PM »
I've played it in non-tournament conditions and I thought that the greens played fine.  I don't remember thinking they were unfair in any way. 

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2022, 07:51:06 PM »
And still, not one peep about the 11th green at Crystal Downs.
I would say you just “peeped” with that comment so why not tell us how you really feel about it?

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2022, 09:47:07 PM »
And still, not one peep about the 11th green at Crystal Downs.
I would say you just “peeped” with that comment so why not tell us how you really feel about it?


In the context of this thread about whether, or not, to touch old greens on great courses due to increasing green speeds, I wondered aloud why CD#11 hasn’t been questioned in the same way that Pasatiempo is. I don’t love what was done on #11 at CD. It used to be a slightly rumpled, but simple plane green surface that tilted hard back to front. It has become increasingly difficult to play due to green speeds. The solution that was implemented includes a very definite shelf in the middle of the green, which seems very flat. The same problem exists if you get behind the hole, in that you cannot stop your putt from rolling off the front. It is very noticeably out of character with what used to be there. Full disclosure, I’ve only played it once since the work was done.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2022, 09:45:04 AM »
I think most of us think rebuilding greens should be a last resort!  Rebuilding a green is an expensive and a major undertaking especially on a historic/classic golf course.  And unlike an old bunker or grass hollow which for the most part can be restored to its original look and playing characteristics, once an original green is rebuilt, it is changed forever.  That said, almost every old green has been changed/modified/altered just from routine play and maintenance.  But still, the process of converting, for example, an old push up green to a USGA spec is dramatic and very different then rebuilding an old bunker.  There are a lot of courses either considering, planning, or already have taken this course of action - rebuilding one or more if not all of their original greens.  What drives clubs/courses to take this last resort to determine this is the best course of action?

One other thing I will note is that while it is not easy, especially in the middle of a round trying to maintain pace of play, I wonder how many people really study greens/green complexes when they play them especially if they only play or see the course one time?  My guess is very few! How many actually putt to multiple locations on each green to see how the ball reacts.  I wonder how many study how and where water drains and look for example for catch basins (to me catch basins around greens are a crutch as they generally can be eliminated with careful and thoughtful grading). How many look to see what happens to balls rolling off false fronts on greens or how well approaches are integrated into green surfaces.  Most play a green to the hole location of the day and judge it based on that.  If you don’t really study much more then just that day’s hole location by actually testing some different green sections etc, can you really make any kind of strong judgements about the greens?  Sadly many still do.  Green speeds can change from day to day, week to week on many courses as well. 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 09:47:31 AM by Mark_Fine »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2022, 10:47:02 AM »
I don't claim to have any knowledge regarding the subsurface of the Pasatiempo greens.  My understanding is that the main reason for installing USGA greens is to improve drainage while creating a perched water table.  At our club in the Chicago area, built on clay soil based pushed up greens many dating to 1921, we installed XGD drainage about 10 years ago after an aggressive program of drill and fill.  It has worked beautifully and we did not have to alter our Alison greens.

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pasatiempo To Rebuild Greens?
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2022, 05:26:31 PM »
I have played Pasatiempo twice within the past few years (pre-Covid, I guess). The first time was just a day or so before a tournament of some kind (a member tournament as I recall, not the Western or anything like that). I played with a member and he told me that the greens were particularly firm and fast in anticipation of the event. True to form, between it being my first time around and the greens being turned up, I got absolutely ejected around the green complexes.


Played again a year later on a "normal" day and the greens were notably softer and a bit slower and it made all the difference. The first time around, every putt felt scary and defensive. On the "normal" day, you still very much didn't want to be above the hole, but if you put the ball in the right spot and were below the hole, you could make a semi-aggressive stroke. Chipping and pitching around the green was also not so fraught.


The lesson to me is that when they turn the greens up, that's when the greens get a bit silly.


As to Crystal Downs, I think the answer is pretty simply. Pasatiempo is hosting collegiate events (and may be interested in hosting other events given that they are converting to USGA greens). CD isn't looking to please anyone but their members, so if the members aren't petitioning to change the 11th green, then why should they?