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Padraig Dooley

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'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« on: June 29, 2012, 06:46:11 PM »
"I feel remiss not ever having played here. Corey Pavin said yesterday, 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.' That's the true measure of a great golf course, whether you want to go continue.


http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2012/6/28/fox-chapel-people-should-wake-up-and-realize-what-a-great-go.html

From Geoff Shackelford, Corey Pavin talking about Fox Chapel.

What great courses don't meet this criteria about wanting to continue as soon as you finish? Courses that beat you up?

 
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There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

jeffwarne

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2012, 07:12:18 PM »
No great course fails to meet this criteria
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joe Bausch

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2012, 07:27:26 PM »
Quote from: Padraig Dooley on June 29, 2012, 06:46:11 PM
"I feel remiss not ever having played here. Corey Pavin said yesterday, 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.' That's the true measure of a great golf course, whether you want to go continue.


I had this same feeling today after finishing the soon to be NLE Horsham Valley.  Photo tour and comparison with some classic golden era Philly courses to follow in a separate thread.
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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Padraig Dooley

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2012, 07:34:40 PM »
Haven't played it, but how about somewhere like Oakmont, known as being extremely difficult?

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There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

jeffwarne

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2012, 07:41:41 PM »
Quote from: Padraig Dooley on June 29, 2012, 07:34:40 PM
Haven't played it, but how about somewhere like Oakmont, known as being extremely difficult?



I'd go right to the first tee ;D
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Matt_Cohn

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2012, 08:07:22 PM »
What if you can't wait to go play the golf course again...the next day?
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David_Tepper

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 08:53:00 PM »
Padraig Dooley -

You really need to play the Olympic Club Lake Course the next time you visit San Francisco. I would be interested to see both if you think it is a great course and whether you would want to go out and play it again. ;)

DT
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Jason Thurman

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 09:05:10 PM »
It's true that one type of great course makes you want to go right back to the 1st tee. Then again, there are other great courses that make you want to relax in a comfortable chair with a drink and go back over the round in your head.

For instance, I'm not sure how many people that walk and carry at Bethpage want to go right back to the first tee, but it's obviously a great course.
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Keith OHalloran

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2012, 09:43:20 PM »
Jason,
That is exactly what came to my mind. I don't think I have ever wanted to go right back to the first tee after 18 at BPB.
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Tony_Chapman

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2012, 10:00:06 PM »
Courses that fit this category for me: Sand Hills, Wild Horse, Prairie Dunes, Pinehurst #2, Tobacco Road, Southern Pines.
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Duncan Cheslett

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2012, 10:51:09 PM »
Quote
'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.' That's the true measure of a great golf course, whether you want to go continue.


Surely a lot depends on the 18th hole...






I love my home course but after finishing this brute my thoughts are firmly focussed on the 19th hole - not the 1st!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 10:55:01 PM by Duncan Cheslett »
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Jason Thurman

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2012, 11:31:25 PM »
Tony, I definitely agree on Wild Horse. Pebble Beach and Lawsonia are both on the list for me as well (price at Pebble notwithstanding!).
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"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2012, 02:57:14 AM »
Quote from: jeffwarne on June 29, 2012, 07:12:18 PM
No great course fails to meet this criteria


Jeff,

Only if you play from the appropriate tees
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Sean_A

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2012, 04:29:35 AM »
Quote from: jeffwarne on June 29, 2012, 07:12:18 PM
No great course fails to meet this criteria

It never even enters my mind for determining greatness.  I would rather play it the next day and have time to drink and mull.  My first concern is always about being on holiday and holidays aren't for rushing about.  My second concern (if not on holiday) is making it back home for dinner.  One has to keep things on an even keel on the home front or pay heavy price for each transgression.  Besides, I like my wife's cooking - tee hee.

Ciao
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A.G._Crockett

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2012, 08:11:44 AM »
Another version of this was told to me by Bill Bergin.  He says his goal with a golf course design is for players to finish and want to play again immediately because they not only had fun, but they're sure they could do a little better than they just did.

I think that often such course is "easy" off the tee, and much more demanding around the greens, so that strokes slip away in a more subtle manner, instead of beating the player to death with distance and rough.
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"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

jeffwarne

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2012, 08:14:11 AM »
Quote from: Keith OHalloran on June 29, 2012, 09:43:20 PM
Jason,
That is exactly what came to my mind. I don't think I have ever wanted to go right back to the first tee after 18 at BPB.

Perhaps that's telling you something about BPB, or at least the post Opens' setup setup (or possibly about the way they run the operation which nearly always insures a 5 1/2hour + slog)
Very litle of that is "great" to me
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Keith OHalloran

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2012, 08:50:12 AM »
Jeff,
I couldn't agree more. Perhaps the entire package means that post US Open BPB is not a "great" course?
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Jeff Tang

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2012, 09:47:11 AM »
I would agree great couses share this characteristic. For me courses like Pacific Dunes,  TOC, and Ballyneal are examples where after you're done playing you know there is more out there to see and learn. This combined with the fun factor of these courses makes me wanrt to tee it up again immediately.
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So bad it's good!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2012, 12:05:55 PM »
Padraig,

I Think that's the ultimate test, but it tends to be a subjective test.

I've always felt that a course that made me want to go straight to the 1st tee after walking off the 18th green was a great course because subconsciously it appealed to all I liked and enjoyed about a golf course and it's architecture.

In other words it was a visceral rather than an analytical evaluation.

I didn't have to reflect on each hole and each feature in order to ascertain their quality.
Their quality, individually and collectively was apparent to my senses, consciously and subconsciously.

That includes the challenge.

I played WFW recently, from approximately the yardage for the 1959 Open.
Had I played the back tees, I wouldn't want to go straight to the first tee after leaving the 18th green.
It's far too long for my game, but I saw young guys with good swings teeing off from the back tees.
I wonder how they felt after walking off the 18th green

WFW is a great golf course with some of the best greens and green complexes to be found anywhere,
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jeffwarne

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2012, 03:50:36 PM »
Quote from: Brian Sheehy on June 30, 2012, 10:26:16 AM
Not with you on this one, Jeff. Desire to immediately hit 1 after a full round of golf has more to do with energy levels, walkability and lack of length for me but obviously it needs to be a pretty good course as a starting point. The 19th hole is a crucial part of the day for me and I think it's important for any club to focus some attention on getting that part of the golfing experience right.

Sorry Brian,
I thought the thread said after I finished the 19th hole ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 03:53:34 PM by jeffwarne »
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"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Ronald Montesano

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2012, 04:51:09 PM »
Wouldn't this depend on opportunity? If you know that you'll again have access, isn't your need tempered? If you know you won't be back ever again, isn't your desire heightened?
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Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2012, 05:39:03 PM »
Quote from: Ronald Montesano on June 30, 2012, 04:51:09 PM

Wouldn't this depend on opportunity?

No, it wouldn't.
It's a visceral response, not dependent upon the probability of future play.

If you know that you'll again have access, isn't your need tempered?

NO, it's an "in the moment" reaction, an urge based upon the most recent of experiences, and not contingent upon future prospects.

If you just finished having sex with an incredible woman, does your reaction to the immediate experience depend upon the possibility of future encounters ?

OR, after having a great experience, do you want to go back for more, immediately, even though you might have the opportunity sometime in the future ?

Me, I want to enjoy as much as I can, while I can, NOW.


If you know you won't be back ever again, isn't your desire heightened?
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Padraig Dooley

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2012, 05:54:48 PM »
Who has done this?

I never done it but have had something to eat before heading out for a few more holes, the last time was in The Meadow Club last October.

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There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Mark Pearce

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2012, 06:12:41 PM »
First time I played Carnoustie, in driving rain, we went straight from 18 green to the pro-shop to see if there was a chance to go back out.
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: 'When I finished the 18th hole, I wanted to go start playing again.'
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2012, 08:58:21 PM »
Third or fourth in line on the BPB opinion, but I would go play Red again after holing out on 18. 

The place that does it for me most is Schuylkill, even though this may not necessarily be considered a 'great' golf course. I played there last in April, and you have to walk directly behind 1 tee after finishing, I remember saying to Mark, "I wish we had more time"

I think Huntingdon Valley does this for me as well, and close to home, GB, ACCC, HC and Seaview all share this. 
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