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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and Contractors
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2004, 06:11:03 PM »
Neal,
Just curious, if an architect estimates quantities and contractors bid against those quantities, what happens if it turns out the estimated quantities were low?  Who is responsible?  
Mark

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and Contractors
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2004, 06:39:23 PM »
Mark,

Of course each project is different, but usually there is explicit language in the specifications and project manual that ensures the contractor must satisfy himself that the estimated quantities are accurate.  Typically, no contractor completely trusts the architect to get everything right so they will do their own take-offs to protect themselves and then modify the quantities if they feel the estimated quantities are off.

There is also a unit cost associated with each item up front making adds and deducts (although there are never deducts) easy to calculate if necessary.

The goal is to get within a very reasonable range relative to the work to be done.  You wouldn't want to estimate 285,000 c.y. on a job, only to have the contractor come up with 385,000 c.y.  That is why a conscientious architect utilizes up-to-date cut and fill programs as does the contractor.  

This is a most generic answer, I know, but I hope it begins to explain a bit more.
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and Contractors
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2004, 10:01:04 PM »
IHMO, in the roaring 90's, the trend in golf construction was towards quality and away from strict budgets.  Many architects stressed perfect plans and quantities much less than in other economic climates.  As a result, most contractors would, no matter what the specs say, argue in favor of a unit price contract! And, in most cases, that is a pretty fair way to go.  In that scenario, I always feel the responsibility to get the quantities within a few percentage points.  

The hardest thing to measure is dirt.  I rarely try, except to generally satisfy myself that the approximate quantity is moved.  In some cases, like raising the greens to a certain flood plain level, you can 't let them slide.  In other cases, the contractor may realize you want vision to a green, but fill it less and cut the fairway more than I planned to acheive the same goal, in which case, I just don't care.  Usually, field conditions mean that they move more dirt in some places, but less in others.  

I think Bill is referring to one sided owners or architects who use a lump sum bid, but keep increasing the quantities.  Sometimes, extending a path, or even moving it to the other side of the fairway can add signifigantly to plan quantities, and the contractor should get paid for it, since hes paying a sub and supplier more.  Of course, many contractors get the reputation for shading things the other way, perhaps not extending the cart path all the way to the back tee as shown on plan.  In most cases, we'll draw the plan where we think it should go, the owner will tell us to cut budget, whereupon we shorten the path, and then, when all are in the field, everyone realizes that it needs to go in as originally drawn.  

So, its not really fair to the contractor to just have to add it.  Generally, its the owners project, and he should be responsible for paying for what he wants.  

The grey areas are whether plans really depict what the contractor submitted a price for.  In a competitive bid situation , they intrepret the plans to their benefit, and contractually, they must ask those questions during bidding, and the architect does the intrepretation, so that all bidders have the same knowledge of what is expected.  

It's surprising how often contractors don
't bring their questions to you until after the bid! In those cases, the architect must intrerpret the plans, which may cost the contractor more than he wanted.  Granted, however, if arhictects enforced all specs to the "Tee" contractors would go broke.  If they bid like they expected the architect to enforce each spec as written, without any give, they wouldn't get the bid.  

On the other hand, those types of disputes occur on virtually every job, and the Owner, and sometimes archtect suspects the contractor is simply trying to cut corners.  Sometimes, I feel like I should come to the job wearing referees stripes!  And, as you consider whether an architects fee is worth it, remember that much of our time is spent in contract administration, and not just the fun stuff of field modifying a design for greatness.

That's why we like working with only experienced contractors, since they are definitely  fewer in number.  



Many of my spec clauses come from contractors finding loopholes in the specs to reduce their quantities.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects and Contractors
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2004, 03:55:28 AM »
Neal,

Thanks for that clarification, I will take it to my next discussion.

Jeff,

When I worked in construction one of the years was a year in head office working as an estimator.  One of things we always, always looked for was extras.  

If we thought that the spec was incomplete or not nearly as watertight as it should be then we would bump up our hourly rates which we always had to declare at the start of the tender documents.  The other area where we always bumped up our prices was the greens, as we knew they had to built and 99% of the time they wouldn't be reduced but increased by the client as he or she was convinced by the architect to increase the size.

I haven't been involved on a job where green sizes have been reduced yet.  If the sizes where as low as 400 m2 then we definately loaded the prices.  Other areas where we went low would be because we thought we would be able to come up with a better solution or alternative and hoped that it would be dropped from the contract....but I have lost money on these as the client didn't always agree with us..

One of the reasons we never asked questions is because here in Norway if you ask a question to the architect, he must reply not only to the questioner but also to all the other bidders so we would try to guess what exactly an architect was thinnking rather than let on to the others....again it is risky but sometimes it paid off..

One of the policies my company put in place while I was working for them was if someone priced a job and it was a mdium size contract and you got the job then you would go and take the job yourself as Project Manager.  This was a good thing because you as Project Manager understood the tactical pricing but it wasn't very nice when I once got asked by a foreman...

'Which f**king idiot priced this retainer wall?'

Brian
« Last Edit: January 05, 2004, 03:57:49 AM by Brian Phillips »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

A_Clay_Man

Re:Architects and Contractors
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2004, 01:05:03 PM »
O.K. here's two pics. You tell me, same course? Same contractor?

No fair cheating and looking at the URL.





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