What have other sports done?

[Ed Oden]

Do basketball players use distance measuring devises to shoot?  No, but they all know the dimensions of the lane, the foul line and the three point line, which is pretty close to the same thing.
Do Am. football quarterbacks use distance measuring devises to throw passes?  There are yardage markers on the field.
Do basketball players use segways? http://nwba.org/
Does any sport beside golf use segways?

Kalen wants absurd. Here is some of the absurdest stuff I have seen in awhile.

Garland, off the top of my head I can't think of another sport that is more aware of yardage than football.  Everytime they line up they know how far they have to go for a first down and where they are on the field.  I guarantee you that every player on the field is aware (or at least trying to be aware) of down and distance.  How is that absurd?  Do you not think that basketball players are aware of the foul line, the lane and the 3 point line?  

[Joey Chase]

3 pointer in Basketball has significantly changed the game.  How about the addition of the two point conversion or instant replay in the NFL

[David_Tepper]

"So it's done for reliability, not performance."

Garland -

It is done so both teams are kicking with footballs that have similar characteristics. In this case, reliability is performance!

DT

[Garland Bayley]

Garland -

One of the biggest equipment changes in hockey was when players realized the benefits of having curved blades on their sticks, which I am guessing occurred about 50 years ago. Players soaked the blades of their sticks in water to soften them so that they could mold them into curved shapes. This allowed them to elevate and curve their shots on goal.

This is somewhat analogous to the curved surfaces on wooden clubs which happened before golf rule making and regulation became a rigorous practice. Doubt it added much "ball speed" though.

The list goes on and on.

One further comment regarding changing the size of the playing fields of other sports compared to golf. All those other sports have had the dimensions of their playing fields stated in the rules & regulations of those sports. The big difference is, to the best of my knowledge, golf has never had any rules regarding the dimensions of what constitutes a golf course.     

But yet golf architects have complained since time immemorial that failure to regulate the ball is ruining or will ruin the game. Golf of course has specifications on par with respect to distance, which they have had to change since they don't regulate the ball well enough.

DT  

[Garland Bayley]

The next thing you know they will start replacing baseball umpires with instant replay!!!!


Oh....wait. 

Come on Pat. Aren't you going to give us the details of the unregulated implement performance improvements in squash? Or, aren't there any?

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry Garland.....no digging out of this one, your comebacks are falling way short.

The thread is officially busted, even though I'm sure you'll keep it going in official MM style.  Have fun, I'm out.

So Kalen, you really have nothing substantial to contribute? This whole thing got started with your stupid analogy to computer technology. If golf had followed the computer technology explosion we would be playing intergalactically by now. Tom Doak would not have a degree in landscape architecture, but instead in rocket science.

[PCCraig]

The next thing you know they will start replacing baseball umpires with instant replay!!!!


Oh....wait. 

Come on Pat. Aren't you going to give us the details of the unregulated implement performance improvements in squash? Or, aren't there any?

Garland,

This website is for discussing golf course architecture. There is however a great new website for people who love to live in the past and spew venom towards anyone who doesn't agree with them. You should post your thoughts there and leave this site to those who are here to actually have productive conversations. Here's the link:
https://www.facebook.com/melvyn.morrow

Warning though, most of what you read can't always be considered truth:
http://www.golfisland.com/blog/?p=520

[Garland Bayley]

Do basketball players use distance measuring devises to shoot?  No, but they all know the dimensions of the lane, the foul line and the three point line, which is pretty close to the same thing.
Do Am. football quarterbacks use distance measuring devises to throw passes?  There are yardage markers on the field.
Do basketball players use segways? http://nwba.org/
Does any sport beside golf use segways?

Kalen wants absurd. Here is some of the absurdest stuff I have seen in awhile.

Garland, off the top of my head I can't think of another sport that is more aware of yardage than football.  Everytime they line up they know how far they have to go for a first down and where they are on the field.  I guarantee you that every player on the field is aware (or at least trying to be aware) of down and distance.  How is that absurd?  Do you not think that basketball players are aware of the foul line, the lane and the 3 point line?  

What your post fails to address is that the basketball player and the quarterback use their eyesight and instinct to make baskets and complete passes. If the golfer were required to be played fast enough, the golfer too would be required to use the same instead of using every measured distance available to him and double checking it with laser and gps.

That was the point of the original questions.

[Garland Bayley]

3 pointer in Basketball has significantly changed the game.  How about the addition of the two point conversion or instant replay in the NFL

My questions were primarily about implements. Golf has considered changing the hole size, counting only half the putts, and so on. I do not think these things pertinent to the discussion.

[Garland Bayley]

"So it's done for reliability, not performance."

Garland -

It is done so both teams are kicking with footballs that have similar characteristics. In this case, reliability is performance!

DT

Different meaning of performance.

[Garland Bayley]

The next thing you know they will start replacing baseball umpires with instant replay!!!!


Oh....wait. 

Come on Pat. Aren't you going to give us the details of the unregulated implement performance improvements in squash? Or, aren't there any?

Garland,

This website is for discussing golf course architecture. There is however a great new website for people who love to live in the past and spew venom towards anyone who doesn't agree with them. You should post your thoughts there and leave this site to those who are here to actually have productive conversations. Here's the link:
https://www.facebook.com/melvyn.morrow

Warning though, most of what you read can't always be considered truth:
http://www.golfisland.com/blog/?p=520

VENOM? Let's put that one up to a vote. How many of the posters on this thread think I am spewing venom? Well, other than towards Kalen who deserves it for beating me in the most recent GRUDGE MATCH.

[David_Tepper]

"If the golfer were required to be played fast enough"

Garland -

Now you are failing to appreciate yet another difference between golf and many other sports (football, soccer, hockey, basketball, rugby, etc.), there has never been a rule in golf requiring how fast a round of golf must be played.

DT

[Garland Bayley]

"If the golfer were required to be played fast enough"

Garland -

Now you are failing to appreciate yet another difference between golf and many other sports (football, soccer, hockey, basketball, rugby, etc.), there has never been a rule in golf requiring how fast a round of golf must be played.

DT

Never said there was. That was a hypothetical.

[David_Tepper]

Garland -

If architects have been complaining "since time immemorial" that golf balls going longer distances have or will ruin the game of golf and it has not happened yet, I am going to find something else to worry about.

DT

[Pat Burke]

Hockey stick curve.  Led to more use of slap shots.  Created more movement on the puck when shot.  High, hard shots easier to pull off.
Composite sticks.  Lighter, more power on shots.  More consistency, stick to stick.  Less reliability.
Hockey skates.  Composite blade holder make for much lighter skates, leading to more speed.
Composite materials in skate boots again mean lighter and more speed.
Stainless blades hold and edge longer for better push-off ,turning and stopping.
Lighter protective equipment produces more speed along with greater protection (and more use as a weapon in hitting).
Synthetic equipment is lighter, moisture resistant (lighter throughout a game), and for goalies has helped
transform the position.  

[Garland Bayley]

Garland -

If architects have been complaining "since time immemorial" that golf balls going longer distances have or will ruin the game of golf and it has not happened yet, I am going to find something else to worry about.

DT

I'm not sure you can be for Tee it forward for its shortening of distances, and be for the unregulated ball and its lengthening of distances. Can you?

[David_Tepper]

"unregulated ball"??

Garland -

Are there not very specific USGA regulations regarding the golf ball?

When you have dug a hole this deep for yourself, my first advice would be to stop digging.  

DT

[Garland Bayley]

"unregulated ball"??

Garland -

Are there not very specific USGA regulations regarding the golf ball?

When you have dug a hole this deep for yourself, my first advice would be to stop digging.  

DT

The are not regulating the factor that caused the latest distance boom. In the middle of the last century past, each time a factor came up that would cause a distance boom, or other detrimental action by the ball. They put a regulation in place to counter that development. This time they have not. Sorry if I got a little loose with my regulation specification.

[Garland Bayley]

Hockey stick curve.  Led to more use of slap shots.  Created more movement on the puck when shot.  High, hard shots easier to pull off.
Already addressed
Composite sticks.  Lighter, more power on shots.  More consistency, stick to stick.  Less reliability.
Don't know what you mean less reliability. Do they break more often? More often than wood? I am a doubter that lighter golf sticks make for better play, so am not concerned with light.
Hockey skates.  Composite blade holder make for much lighter skates, leading to more speed.
Composite materials in skate boots again mean lighter and more speed.
Stainless blades hold and edge longer for better push-off ,turning and stopping.
No one complaining about improvements to golf shoes and spikes. SS advocated playing barefoot. Hockey players should try that.
Lighter protective equipment produces more speed along with greater protection (and more use as a weapon in hitting).
Synthetic equipment is lighter, moisture resistant (lighter throughout a game), and for goalies has helped
transform the position.  
No one complaining about improvements to golf clothing, either.

[Pat Burke]

Hockey stick curve.  Led to more use of slap shots.  Created more movement on the puck when shot.  High, hard shots easier to pull off.
Already addressed
Composite sticks.  Lighter, more power on shots.  More consistency, stick to stick.  Less reliability.
Don't know what you mean less reliability. Do they break more often? More often than wood? I am a doubter that lighter golf sticks make for better play, so am not concerned with light.
Hockey skates.  Composite blade holder make for much lighter skates, leading to more speed.
Composite materials in skate boots again mean lighter and more speed.
Stainless blades hold and edge longer for better push-off ,turning and stopping.
No one complaining about improvements to golf shoes and spikes. SS advocated playing barefoot. Hockey players should try that.
Lighter protective equipment produces more speed along with greater protection (and more use as a weapon in hitting).
Synthetic equipment is lighter, moisture resistant (lighter throughout a game), and for goalies has helped
transform the position.  
No one complaining about improvements to golf clothing, either.

So, just giving some hockey changes, making no political statement.
Composite sticks have a habit of breaking at very bad times

[Jason Topp]

I am a doubter that lighter golf sticks make for better play, so am not concerned with light.

I have read articles attributing about 6 mph of swing speed increases to lightweight shafts which I believe converts to at least 15 yards.

[Doug Siebert]

I believe the width of the goalposts in football has been narrowed over time, as has the width of the hash marks on the field. Both have had an impact on scoring.

Reference please.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1991-08-31/sports/1991243069_1_dinosaur-books-bentley-darby

The NFL did it in the 70s I believe.  When they did it they also narrowed the hashmarks, college football has left the hashmarks narrower (so those 19 yard field goals from the right side are kind of nasty for right footed soccer style kickers)

[Doug Siebert]

This is somewhat analogous to the curved surfaces on wooden clubs which happened before golf rule making and regulation became a rigorous practice. Doubt it added much "ball speed" though.

I've always heard the reason is because gear effect caused balls hit on the toe to hook back to the middle and balls on the heel to slice back to the middle.  Given the otherwise lousy clubs they made back in the day (i.e., they didn't have any idea where to put the weight in their irons) I wonder if it was just for durability.  For some reason it seems to me that if you hit a wooden driver way out on the toe and the face wasn't curved, thereby encouraging the club to twist in your hands, that it might just break due to the sudden stress that couldn't easily be dissipated.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a hard time thinking of guys like Old Tom Morris having all that much knowledge of physics!

[A.G._Crockett]

"unregulated ball"??

Garland -

Are there not very specific USGA regulations regarding the golf ball?

When you have dug a hole this deep for yourself, my first advice would be to stop digging.  

DT

The are not regulating the factor that caused the latest distance boom. In the middle of the last century past, each time a factor came up that would cause a distance boom, or other detrimental action by the ball. They put a regulation in place to counter that development. This time they have not. Sorry if I got a little loose with my regulation specification.

This post is so wrong that it is impossible to know how to respond.  Truly remarkable.

[Doug Siebert]

The are not regulating the factor that caused the latest distance boom. In the middle of the last century past, each time a factor came up that would cause a distance boom, or other detrimental action by the ball. They put a regulation in place to counter that development. This time they have not. Sorry if I got a little loose with my regulation specification.

This post is so wrong that it is impossible to know how to respond.  Truly remarkable.

In what way is this wrong?  The main reason the ball goes so much further today for pros and amateurs with sufficient swing speed is because they figured out how to make a ball with multiple layers, to allow reducing the spin rate for drives without compromising it for short irons and the short game.  No pro could play with a ball that maintained that same low spin rate for every club in the bag, unless it had just rained 2".

If they simply regulated in this one area, enforcing some sort of relationship between the spin rate off a driver and off a wedge, they could fix things.  But the USGA is afraid to do so, because they are now operating more as a hedge fund than as a sports governing body, and are afraid of losing their quarter billion dollar money pile.