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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2012, 06:45:22 AM »
Regarding Porter's Park website, the 11th is very reminiscent of the 8th at West Hill with the diagonal cross bunkering...

Did anyone touch up Butchart's design at West Hill during the 20's?... I can't recall... If they didn't (and perhaps didn't touch Porters Park either), I wonder if it was Butchart introducing these strategic elements to his courses... He'd be one of the earliest if that was the case....

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Rich Goodale

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2012, 07:11:17 AM »
Quote from: Ally Mcintosh on June 27, 2012, 06:45:22 AM
Regarding Porter's Park website, the 11th is very reminiscent of the 8th at West Hill with the diagonal cross bunkering...

Did anyone touch up Butchart's design at West Hill during the 20's?... I can't recall... If they didn't (and perhaps didn't touch Porters Park either), I wonder if it was Butchart introducing these strategic elements to his courses... He'd be one of the earliest if that was the case....



I remember unearthing a reference a few years ago to Butchart being associated with Pine Valley in the 1920-1930's.  Can anybody confirm this?  He did move to the USA soon after being released from a POW camp in WWI, so given his status the PV connection is not impossible...
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Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

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Tom MacWood

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2012, 01:23:45 PM »
I thought Jack White designed West Hill.
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Steve Strasheim

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2012, 01:28:44 PM »
Facsinating pictures, thanks for posting.
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2012, 01:31:57 PM »
There is an aerial of Highgate, another Butchard course, in the 'golf' search. I played there from time to time in the 1970s. It crosses a covered in reservoir. In places it is remarkably rural despite its proximity to the centre of London and its Ambassadorial residences in Winnington Road.
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DMoriarty

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2012, 01:42:54 PM »
Quote from: Rich Goodale on June 27, 2012, 07:11:17 AM
I remember unearthing a reference a few years ago to Butchart being associated with Pine Valley in the 1920-1930's.  Can anybody confirm this?  He did move to the USA soon after being released from a POW camp in WWI, so given his status the PV connection is not impossible...

Not sure about Pine Valley.  He was reportedly the professional at the Westchester Biltmore Course in Rye, New York in the early 1920's through 1924, and reportedly laid out at least one course in the Orlando area in 1921.
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Rich Goodale

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2012, 01:51:14 PM »
Quote from: DMoriarty on June 27, 2012, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: Rich Goodale on June 27, 2012, 07:11:17 AM
I remember unearthing a reference a few years ago to Butchart being associated with Pine Valley in the 1920-1930's.  Can anybody confirm this?  He did move to the USA soon after being released from a POW camp in WWI, so given his status the PV connection is not impossible...

Not sure about Pine Valley.  He was reportedly the professional at the Westchester Biltmore Course in Rye, New York in the early 1920's through 1924, and reportedly laid out at least one course in the Orlando area in 1921.

Hi Dave

You may not like the messenger of the following (comment #2), but the message seems to support my memory.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25523.msg474531.html#msg474531

Rich
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Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2012, 02:21:19 PM »
Not even a mention of Butchart on the Club website...:

"In its early days, the design of the course was influenced by a number of architects including John Henry 'JH' Taylor, one of the pioneers of the modern game. Before becoming a significant golf course architect, he was a five-time winner of the Open Championship and a member of the fabled Great Triumvirate of golf, with Harry Vardon and James Braid.

Between 1946 and 1969, several improvements were made to the course under the supervision of Charles Kenneth Cotton. In 1945, he was the club’s secretary but he went on to become one of the UK’s most distinguished post-war golf architects."

?

F.
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2012, 03:32:00 PM »
These are the courses Butchart advertised he planned, constructed and/or advised:

Antrim
Bangor
Bad Kissengen
Bundoran
Bleakdown
Fort William
Highgate
Hunstanton
Lanke
North Middlesex
Oberlogau
Porter's Park
Royal County Down
West Hill
Whitehead
Worplesdon

My guess is the majority of these are redesigns. He was based in Northern Ireland between 1899 and 1904, London between 1904 and 1911, and then Berlin 1911 until he went to the US in 1921. He was interned in a prison camp three or four of those years in Germany.
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Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2012, 03:56:35 PM »
Quote from: Tom MacWood on June 27, 2012, 01:23:45 PM
I thought Jack White designed West Hill.

Why do you think that?


Ally 
"Did anyone touch up Butchart's design at West Hill during the 20's?... I can't recall... If they didn't (and perhaps didn't touch Porters Park either), I wonder if it was Butchart introducing these strategic elements to his courses... He'd be one of the earliest if that was the case...."

WA Murray was the Club Secretary part time there during the 20’s, the rest of the time he was the on site Architect for Colt and Co. Mind you, according to the famous Obituary, Colt was known to the barman at the time as (from memory) “the Governor”.  I guess we’ll never know why but some local research might solve a few riddles.
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Tom MacWood

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2012, 05:13:41 PM »
Tony
In The Encyclopedia of Golf (Steel & Ryde) there is a brief history of West Hill, and they claim White designed the course. In History of Golf in Britain Guy Campbell claims White designed it assisted by Willie Park, Jr. And in The Parks of Musselburgh Adams says White/Park, referencing two articles, Golf Monthly June 1911 and Golfing July 25, 1907.

If Porters Park was originally built in 1899, that would have been a redesign too. Butchart was based in London (1904-1911).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 05:17:08 PM by Tom MacWood »
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Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2012, 05:21:16 PM »
Quote from: Tom MacWood on June 27, 2012, 05:13:41 PM
Tony
In The Encyclopedia of Golf (Steel & Ryde) there is a brief history of West Hill, and they claim White designed the course. In History of Golf in Britain Guy Campbell claims White designed it assisted by Willie Park, Jr. And in The Park's of Musselburgh Adams says White/Park, referencing two articles, Golf Monthly June 1911 and Golfing July 25, 1907.

If Porters Park was originally in 1899, that would have been a redesign too while Butchart was based in London (1904-1911).


Thank you Tom.  This is the same guy who was the first pro at Sunningdale and did some attributed work with Colt as he started to branch into Architecture?  West Hill is 1907 around the same time. Curiouser and curiouser. 

I wonder how much influence he had on Colt when as Secretary he started to improve Sunningdale?
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Tom MacWood

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2012, 05:51:37 PM »
Yes, he was the pro at Sunningdale for almost 25 years; apparently he was sacked for drinking and womanizing. He won the 1904 Open. Thats a good question as to a possible influence, I don't recall Colt ever mentioning him, but I could be wrong about that.
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Tom MacWood

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Re: Britain from Above--a new resource
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2012, 06:13:53 AM »
In 1904 Golf Illustrated reported Highgate and East Finchley GC was laid out by William Winton. William Winton was Tom Winton's brother, who came to America with Willie Park Jr in 1916.
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