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John Mayhugh

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Tom_Doak

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2012, 01:45:38 PM »
I heard this morning that the decision had been rendered [after 15 MONTHS of deliberation by the judge].

I haven't heard all the details, other than that the decision encompassed 320 pages in all, so I presume it's a little bit complicated.  Whatever the result, it is good that it's behind them and that they can stop spending money on legal fees instead of golf.

Darren Gloster

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2012, 02:08:03 PM »
Definitely a good result for the paying customer.

The coordination of the two operations into one will help the two courses rival other multi course resorts like Bandon, Whistling Straits etc. 

It was messy last time we visited.

Stephen Davis

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2012, 02:27:57 PM »
This is great news, especially for the destination golfer. I am happy to hear that more attention can now be payed to the golf.

Dieter Jones

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2012, 10:57:58 PM »
I'm not sure how much effect it will have. When I was last there in April I was able to book golf or accommodation at both venues, at the same time and on the same phone number. I no longer had to book one then hang up and call the other to arrange tee times.

It seems that Sattler felt confident enough or that "separating" the two venues (to assist his argument in the court case) was necessary any longer.

Ther is a little bit more detail on this link

http://www.examiner.com.au/news/local/news/crime-and-law/golf-legal-wrangle-swings-in-sattlers-favour/2604300.aspx?src=rss

Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: ? news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2012, 11:21:49 PM »
How is this good or great news for the retail visitor?
I assume the suit raised the price for them.

Sounds like a group started developing a property - finished the first course.
Then the property/majority holder decided to leave the group and go their own way in the middle of the development.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Scott Warren

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 01:55:05 AM »
Mike,

It's good news because until recently you couldn't play a 36-hole day across the two courses at the day rate.

David_Elvins

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Re: ? news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 02:38:59 AM »
How is this good or great news for the retail visitor?
I assume the suit raised the price for them.

Prices are set by demand, not court costs.

Having 2 courses at the one location operating independently was not great for the consumer.  Hopefully as Scott says, a day rate across both courses comes into play.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2012, 02:50:51 AM »
not good news though for Greg Ramsay, Peter Wood and the other shareholders though.....

Chris Kane

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2012, 05:06:21 AM »
not good news though for Greg Ramsay, Peter Wood and the other shareholders though.....
They won on two points - it could have been even worse. The costs order will be very important after a 43-day trial with big legal artillery on both sides.

Tom, its actually not that bad for a case which covers a greenfield area of fiduciary duty - the first 200 pages goes through the facts of the matter (its quite a story, as you know!) with the rest being the judgment and associated legal reasoning. I wouldn't be surprised if it makes it into the casebooks - Australian law students of the future might have to suffer through 'Sattler's case' in their Equity classes!

Its not my place to make judgements about the characters involved, but I will say that its a real shame that people feel they have been hurt. Barnbougle has been fantastic for Australian golf and for Tasmania, and I wish it was a good news story for all the passionate people involved in it.

David_Elvins

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2012, 06:45:38 PM »
Its not my place to make judgements about the characters involved, but I will say that its a real shame that people feel they have been hurt. Barnbougle has been fantastic for Australian golf and for Tasmania, and I wish it was a good news story for all the passionate people involved in it.

I think you have nailed it there, Chris.  A real pitty that those that got to together to create something special have had a falling out over who was responsible for what.

One cannot imagine that the legal costs were less than the money they were fighting over.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mark_F

Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2012, 07:14:23 PM »
One cannot imagine that the legal costs were less than the money they were fighting over.

How do you figure that?  They are fighting for a percentage of future revenues.

Hopefully as Scott says, a day rate across both courses comes into play.

That would hurt Lost Farm. Be interesting to see if it eventuates.


Chris Kane

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2012, 07:44:58 PM »
One cannot imagine that the legal costs were less than the money they were fighting over.

If the numbers I've heard are correct, this case has more in common with divorces than commercial litigation.  :-[

David_Elvins

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2012, 07:47:13 PM »
How do you figure that?  They are fighting for a percentage of future revenues.

Mark,

Most shareholders get a percentage of profit (if there is any), not revenue.  I believe it was a share in ownership they were arguing over, not a share of future revenue.  

In line with what Chris says, it doesn't seem like the case was about money.   
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David Scaletti

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2012, 09:54:11 PM »
I guess it is good news for Barnbougle visitors as John says in the title for the thread. But as Neil suggests, perhaps not so good for Greg Ramsay, Peter Wood, and other investors.

My first contact with Barnbougle came with a phone call from Greg Ramsay in 2001 to go to Tasmania and have a look at some land that he thought might be suitable for a golf course. Even though I didn’t think my opinion would be particularly valid, I went along for a look.

The enthusiasm of Greg was somewhat infectious and I found myself journeying to Bridport on a number of occasions to photograph the land for Greg to promote the idea of Barnbougle Dunes. At times Greg pointed across the river and eventually took me across to walk around the land that eventually became Lost Farm. Even at that stage Greg talked up his plan to have Coore and Crenshaw build the second course.

It was quite the experience to watch the young golf enthusiast and budding entrepreneur go about building his dream. Despite the various setbacks Greg, with the help and financial investment of like-minded golfing aficionados, realised the dream of a links golf course at Bridport.

John, you are correct in that it probably is good news for Barnbougle visitors in the sense that the process of playing there will be somewhat streamlined, but for me much of the soul of the place has been compromised. I share Chris’ lament “I wish it was a good news story for all the passionate people involved in it.”

Sean Walsh

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2012, 10:50:31 PM »
David,

Thanks for the anecdote and well said.

I have absolutely no doubt having listened to Mr Saddler (and later some of the others present) when we were down there last year that both sides believe the other was being greedy and that they had the moral right.  Short of reading through the whole judgement (which I have neither the time nor inclination to do) I'm unlikely to ever know what the case was fought over.  I do know that one can lose a case on the law but still be morally right.  So this as David suggests does effect the soul of the enterprise for many people.

It is a shame it came to this.


David_Elvins

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2012, 01:24:55 AM »
Short of reading through the whole judgement (which I have neither the time nor inclination to do) I'm unlikely to ever know what the case was fought over.

Sean,

I would highly recommend to anyone with an interest in golf courses that they read the judgement, at least the first few hundred paragraphs which lay out the facts of the case in chronological order.  It is a fascinating story of the creation and destruction of a successful golf course development, and whilst it is a tragic tale, there are many lessons to be learnt.

It is an easy read (from a technical point of view) and a fascinating insight into golf course development.  Who knew, for example, that at one stage Ramsay proposed to ditch the development of a Doak course at Barnbougle Dunes and build a Greg Norman course on the Lost Farm land instead?

The judgement is here:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCA/2012/634.html
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 01:30:29 AM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Chris Kane

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2012, 01:57:45 AM »
I strongly support David's suggestion that people should read paras 8 to 442 in the judgment ("The Facts of the Case"). It is a highly forensic account of the history of the topsy-turvy Barnbougle Dunes and Lost Farm developments, and the differences in evidence presented by all the parties involved (as well as being a cracking read). Its difficult to even begin to make sense of who is right, wrong or something in between without doing so; especially as it appears that both sides were utterly convinced of the righteousness of their position and have been telling the public exactly that.

Adam Makepeace

Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2012, 04:59:06 AM »
Short of reading through the whole judgement (which I have neither the time nor inclination to do) I'm unlikely to ever know what the case was fought over.

Sean,

I would highly recommend to anyone with an interest in golf courses that they read the judgement, at least the first few hundred paragraphs which lay out the facts of the case in chronological order.  It is a fascinating story of the creation and destruction of a successful golf course development, and whilst it is a tragic tale, there are many lessons to be learnt.

It is an easy read (from a technical point of view) and a fascinating insight into golf course development.  Who knew, for example, that at one stage Ramsay proposed to ditch the development of a Doak course at Barnbougle Dunes and build a Greg Norman course on the Lost Farm land instead?

The judgement is here:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCA/2012/634.html

Thanks for the link David. Fascinating as you say.

Just shows that true communication is the message received, not the message intended - especially in a complex and technical development.

Mark_F

Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2012, 11:16:16 PM »
.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 03:58:28 AM by Mark Ferguson »

Daryl David

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Re: Good news for Barnbougle visitors
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 06:50:19 PM »
It was definitely a fascinating read for me.  Perhaps due to my own closeness to another golf development debacle, I was not able to put it down. Kind of like driving past a bad car wreck.  You have to slow down and look.