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Howard Riefs

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2012, 01:22:38 PM »

In the end, it's my baby, and I'll do with it what I want to.  But it's also something I love, and I wouldn't do anything to ruin it.  I will not be surprised if it's controversial, but I have no desire to start fueling that controversy right now.  Y'all will just have to wait a year or two to see what I'm up to.

Bravo. Look forward to it.

Do you still plan to pursue the Pacific Dunes book at some point?

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Ted Sturges

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2012, 01:34:11 PM »
Nigel:

The 10's are easy, I have listed them off the top of my head many times:

Ballybunion, Dornoch, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Royal Melbourne
Shinnecock, National, Pine Valley, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point


Great list.  Just curious Tom, is RCD your highest rated "9"?  I'd have a hard time keeping it off of the list of 10's.

TS

Kalen Braley

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2012, 01:37:56 PM »
Tom,

I only have 3 9s on my list of courses played (that i consider to be 9s)....and they all belong to you.

50 years from now, which one do you think will be the best candidate for a 10? PD, RCCC, or BN?

Or perhaps you feel one of them should already be considered as such?

Kalen

Tom_Doak

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2012, 03:02:04 PM »

Do you still plan to pursue the Pacific Dunes book at some point?


The Pacific Dunes book is in the works -- I've been editing the text, and I have someone putting together the text with the pictures.  It is going to be self-published, so we won't be quite as fast with this process as a publisher would be, but I would expect all the work to be done on it this year.  It would be lovely for it to be in print by Christmas, but I won't promise that, because I know we'd be cutting it close in the best of circumstances.  But, I will certainly let it be known when it's ready, and it will be ready way before The Confidential Guide, for which there is a lot more work to be done.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2012, 03:07:33 PM »
Tom,

I only have 3 9s on my list of courses played (that i consider to be 9s)....and they all belong to you.

50 years from now, which one do you think will be the best candidate for a 10? PD, RCCC, or BN?

Or perhaps you feel one of them should already be considered as such?

Kalen

Kalen:

Rating one's own courses is pretty difficult, and one of the reasons I've hesitated to update my book.  My clients will be bummed if I don't give them all 10's.  I won't give away anything for now about how I am going to handle that, but I think I've got a solution that won't be seen as a cop-out.

As for fifty years from now, recent experience has told me that the first order of business is to be sure that the golf course will still BE there in fifty years.  I hope that all three you mentioned will thrive, but if you consider the quality of all three to be nearly equal, you'd have to make Pacific Dunes the favorite in that horse race.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2012, 03:21:24 PM »

Do you still plan to pursue the Pacific Dunes book at some point?


The Pacific Dunes book is in the works -- I've been editing the text, and I have someone putting together the text with the pictures.  It is going to be self-published, so we won't be quite as fast with this process as a publisher would be, but I would expect all the work to be done on it this year.  It would be lovely for it to be in print by Christmas, but I won't promise that, because I know we'd be cutting it close in the best of circumstances.  But, I will certainly let it be known when it's ready, and it will be ready way before The Confidential Guide, for which there is a lot more work to be done.

More great news. Thanks, Tom.

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2012, 03:40:42 PM »
I'm sure the new Confidential Guide is going to be great and we all are going to want one. To update a book like that every 10 or 15 years is about the right timeframe. You'll always have one or two exceptions, but by and large golf courses don't change all that quickly. Some new ones are built, but you'll be well advised to wait a few years before assessing their quality.

The proposition to make the Doak scale more of a business benchmark doesn't have all that much to do with the book, I believe. Sure, the book is going to be the basis for everything, but that is just like the bible is the basis for Christianity, but there are all kinds of business ventures on top of that. Yes, a Guide Michelin style project would be a business all by itself. It could be done without Tom Doak: just use the same standards, but a different name. Since 95% of all golfers don't know Tom Doak anyway, why not enlist Ernie Els or any other name with a bit of mainstream recognition?

Of course we GCAers wouldn't take it very seriously then, but who are we? Just a bunch of geeks :)

Bottom-line: you either make it economically viable, then you are competing with all the existing rankings, or you make it an ivory tower project run by a lot of volunteers in their spare time.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Anders Rytter

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2012, 04:56:14 PM »
Nigel:

The 10's are easy, I have listed them off the top of my head many times:

Ballybunion, Dornoch, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Royal Melbourne
Shinnecock, National, Pine Valley, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point


Great list.  Just curious Tom, is RCD your highest rated "9"?  I'd have a hard time keeping it off of the list of 10's.

TS

10. Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing. If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category, you don’t know how good golf architecture can get. Call your travel agent—immediately.

I don't think i would miss much on RCD if 17th wasn't there. Thats the premise for the 10. But I could play that course every day though.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 04:57:53 PM by Anders Rytter »

David Harshbarger

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2012, 08:01:17 PM »
I'm sure the new Confidential Guide is going to be great and we all are going to want one. To update a book like that every 10 or 15 years is about the right timeframe. You'll always have one or two exceptions, but by and large golf courses don't change all that quickly. Some new ones are built, but you'll be well advised to wait a few years before assessing their quality.

The proposition to make the Doak scale more of a business benchmark doesn't have all that much to do with the book, I believe. Sure, the book is going to be the basis for everything, but that is just like the bible is the basis for Christianity, but there are all kinds of business ventures on top of that. Yes, a Guide Michelin style project would be a business all by itself. It could be done without Tom Doak: just use the same standards, but a different name. Since 95% of all golfers don't know Tom Doak anyway, why not enlist Ernie Els or any other name with a bit of mainstream recognition?

Of course we GCAers wouldn't take it very seriously then, but who are we? Just a bunch of geeks :)

Bottom-line: you either make it economically viable, then you are competing with all the existing rankings, or you make it an ivory tower project run by a lot of volunteers in their spare time.

Ulrich

Ullrich,

I appreciate your observations, and agree that another ranking enterprise could exist independent of Tom and his book.  As he said, it's his baby,and he is inextricably tied to it, both for good and bad.  That he's embracing it afresh, given the change in his stature in the industry since the last edition, is remarkable on its own.  I don't think anyone would look at the arc of his career and say there's a gap because he didn't go back and update what I understand were frank and pointed assessments of the highest profile courses extant.  What does it say about the man, that he wants to be known for this dimension of his body of work, as a critic and observer, in addition to being a top shelf architect who has gotten world class courses into the ground.  To me that shows an admirable measure of character, of conviction, of ownership, self-confidence, and clarity of purpose.

That said, I believe Tom, the Confidential Guide, and the Doak scale enjoy a number of advantages over the Ernie Els Guide if one were to make a commercial ranking system on their basis.

1.  Tom's got a Point of View that is well established.  His opinion isn't random, nor is it capricious.  You don't have to agree with his POV, but if you buy into it, even enough, that gives the ratings immediacy and value.
2.  The Doak scale has 25 years under its belt as of 2014.  it's been applies to many of the World's best courses. There's a baseline established that a commercial venture could build on, as well as reference back to for validity.
3.  Tom's got a number of publications under his belt.  Even if the general public hasn't read them, it's good to show the back catalog to validate his credentials.
4.  His opinion is leant substantial gravitas by the number of courses of his appearing in the other top-100 lists.  He has I believe 5 in the last Golf Magazine list.   When you ask "who is he" to say, well, that's who he is.
5.  The ratings are controversial, to some degree.  That lends credibility, that they aren't the product of a "me, too" source.  In a conservative industry, there's value in standing out as willing to challenge the orthodoxy.
6.  As noted in the comments on Robert Parker, the Cognescenti know Tom, and they will care. 
7.  Because Tom's not a household brand, you would have a pretty blank slate to work from when introducing a commercial vehicle on his brand into the market.  Based on the above points, there's a ton to build from.
8.  There are a lot of people in the industry who would want to see the things I take it Tom values: fun, playability, challenge for all skills, strategic interest and depth, sustainability; more prominent in the conversation and the decision making in clubs at all levels.  They would love an outside validator to bolster their arguments.
9.  The scaling problem?  That's what surrogates are for.  Not every Bushwood gets a visit from the Tom, sorry. And surrogates are needed as Some periodic review is appropriate.  The public is owed timely updates, and the courses need to be kept honest.  Does every course get a visit every cycle?  No.  But enough for the ratings to be relevant.

That's my argument for the Guide Doak, a purely academic argument, fit for an online discussion board.  :-)


The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Matthew Hunt

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2012, 03:36:27 AM »
Nigel:

The 10's are easy, I have listed them off the top of my head many times:

Ballybunion, Dornoch, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Royal Melbourne
Shinnecock, National, Pine Valley, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point



Great list.  Just curious Tom, is RCD your highest rated "9"?  I'd have a hard time keeping it off of the list of 10's.

TS

10. Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing. If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category, you don’t know how good golf architecture can get. Call your travel agent—immediately.

I don't think i would miss much on RCD if 17th wasn't there. Thats the premise for the 10. But I could play that course every day though.

17 has a great green and surrounds which makes the it a fun hole for me. Yet it does look slightly out of place.

Martin Toal

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2012, 04:50:26 AM »
Nigel:

The 10's are easy, I have listed them off the top of my head many times:

Ballybunion, Dornoch, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Royal Melbourne
Shinnecock, National, Pine Valley, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point


Great list.  Just curious Tom, is RCD your highest rated "9"?  I'd have a hard time keeping it off of the list of 10's.

TS

I think Ballybunion Old is a great course, but better than RCD? 

My first signature design course is yet to be commissioned, though.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2012, 05:00:49 AM »

P.S.  Don't pay $2000 to get the book.  There will be a new edition one of these years, which will include far more, and won't cost nearly as much.  The target date for that is the summer of 2014, but of course it could take longer, if I get tied up by my day job.

A la Michelin stars, how much would a club think a 7 is worth vs. a 6, or an 8 vs. a 7, now that Tom Doak 2014 is a very different animal than Tom Doak 1995?  I would have to think clubs would be extremely interested, and a la the Michelin guides, if ever there were to be a tool to drive the GCA vision of golf down into world's clubhouses, the Confidential Guide's Doak number is it.  Especially, if it is revised regularly.  Tom, maybe it's suggestion/overstating is far afield of your intent, but you could redefine how the golf community talks about courses.  "Have you played every 8+ yet?". "they are doing a renovation with the hope of being a 9.". "They let their conditioning go and now they are a 7.". "The members felt if they opened up playing corridors and cut back trees, they had a chance to move up to a 6 next year.  That would make them only 1 of 2 Doak 6's in the area."
Sadly very likely, and as good a reason as there can be not to produce a new edition.  I'd love to see a new edition and would certainly buy one but for the reasons you have set out, it wouldn't be certain to be good for golf.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jud_T

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2012, 08:09:02 AM »
I'd love to see a new edition and would certainly buy one but for the reasons you have set out, it wouldn't be certain to be good for golf.

Mark,

Why not?  People will glom onto whatever cultural or industry touchstone is popular.  While I think Tom might chuckle at the notion that the Son of Confidential Guide might have the kind of market-dominating influence that Robert Parker has on the wine trade, I'd rather people glom onto Doak ratings than the criteria set forth in the Digest top 100.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 08:25:26 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Niall Hay

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2012, 09:20:58 AM »
David's comments above are spot on. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2012, 09:23:24 AM »
The CG by the numbers:

10's - 13
9's - 16 (29 at 9 or higher)
8's - 45 (74 at 8 or higher)
7's - 90 (164 at 7 or higher)
6's - 152 (316 at 6 or higher)

Take your guesses as to how these numbers will be augmented by the moderns/reno's/resto's that will be added to the ranks.

As an aside, there are a ton of 6's and 7's that would seem to merit a bit more conversation around these parts.  Would love to see photos or writeups of the following:

Notts
Newcastle
Joondalup
Deepdale
Wachesaw Plantation
Vintage Club (Desert and Mountain)
Essex (Canada)
Asbridge
Isle of Purbeck
The Australian
Moseleum Springs
Landfall Club
Port Armor
Green Bay
Saticoy
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark Pearce

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2012, 09:27:40 AM »
Sven,

Notts gets plenty of discussion here.  That infamous search engine will bring up several threads, I think.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2012, 09:32:49 AM »
The CG by the numbers:

10's - 13
9's - 16 (29 at 9 or higher)
8's - 45 (74 at 8 or higher)
7's - 90 (164 at 7 or higher)
6's - 152 (316 at 6 or higher)

Take your guesses as to how these numbers will be augmented by the moderns/reno's/resto's that will be added to the ranks.

As an aside, there are a ton of 6's and 7's that would seem to merit a bit more conversation around these parts.  Would love to see photos or writeups of the following:

Notts
Newcastle
Joondalup
Deepdale
Wachesaw Plantation
Vintage Club (Desert and Mountain)
Essex (Canada)
Asbridge
Isle of Purbeck
The Australian
Moseleum Springs
Landfall Club
Port Armor
Green Bay
Saticoy

Notts
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mark Saltzman

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Ted Sturges

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2012, 09:52:37 AM »
Nigel:

The 10's are easy, I have listed them off the top of my head many times:

Ballybunion, Dornoch, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Royal Melbourne
Shinnecock, National, Pine Valley, Merion, Pinehurst #2, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point




Great list.  Just curious Tom, is RCD your highest rated "9"?  I'd have a hard time keeping it off of the list of 10's.

TS

10. Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing. If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category, you don’t know how good golf architecture can get. Call your travel agent—immediately.

I don't think i would miss much on RCD if 17th wasn't there. Thats the premise for the 10. But I could play that course every day though.

Yep, I get your point about the 17th.  Hard to distinguish among great courses I suppose.  But...for my money...a larger number of GREAT holes at RCD than at Cypress, Dornoch, Pinehurst #2, and Crystal Downs.

TS

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2012, 10:00:31 AM »
Appreciate the followup on Notts and Essex. 

Looking through the photos in the threads, it struck me how much Bandon Trails and Kingsley I saw in Notts, and how Essex mirrored the classic look of several of Ross's Chicago courses.  The long par 3 at Essex looks a lot like the 3rd at Beverly.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jason Thurman

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2012, 10:10:11 AM »
Ted, you're hitting on one thing that I would make different between the Doak Scale and the Thurman Scale. The Doak Scale won't give a 10 to any course with a merely good but insignificant hole. Personally, I love Pebble Beach for its 12 or so phenomenal holes and don't care so much that 15 is just solid and 12 is a hit and hope shot. To me, missing the great holes at Pebble is missing perhaps the best collection of great holes around (though I haven't played Pine Valley), and that makes it a 10 even if you won't dream about standing on the 12th tee after your round.

Here's a question. If the Confidential Guide lists 316 courses at a Doak 6 or better, can we take a guess at where a Doak 6 ranks in the US/world? Obviously Tom Doak didn't play every course on the planet to rate them on his scale. Are there 1000 Doak 6s in the world? More? Fewer? What about in the US? I don't think of a 6 as being THAT stringent, and I don't think its definition suggests it should be. Yet, I hear people who seem to think anything outside the Top 100 lists of GolfWeek can't possibly rate above a 5...

Also, how many Doak 0s are there? I've only played one course that I would call a 0, and it was enough of a debacle to see that I'd suggest visiting 0s to be just as important for someone truly interested in architecture as visiting 10s.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Ted Sturges

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2012, 10:33:30 AM »
Ted, you're hitting on one thing that I would make different between the Doak Scale and the Thurman Scale. The Doak Scale won't give a 10 to any course with a merely good but insignificant hole. Personally, I love Pebble Beach for its 12 or so phenomenal holes and don't care so much that 15 is just solid and 12 is a hit and hope shot. To me, missing the great holes at Pebble is missing perhaps the best collection of great holes around (though I haven't played Pine Valley), and that makes it a 10 even if you won't dream about standing on the 12th tee after your round.

Here's a question. If the Confidential Guide lists 316 courses at a Doak 6 or better, can we take a guess at where a Doak 6 ranks in the US/world? Obviously Tom Doak didn't play every course on the planet to rate them on his scale. Are there 1000 Doak 6s in the world? More? Fewer? What about in the US? I don't think of a 6 as being THAT stringent, and I don't think its definition suggests it should be. Yet, I hear people who seem to think anything outside the Top 100 lists of GolfWeek can't possibly rate above a 5...

Also, how many Doak 0s are there? I've only played one course that I would call a 0, and it was enough of a debacle to see that I'd suggest visiting 0s to be just as important for someone truly interested in architecture as visiting 10s.

Jason, though I'm not familiar with the "Thurman scale", I tend to agree with you on the great holes at places like PB and RCD and that those great holes cause me to hold those courses in higher regard.  In the end...on my own "scale", I end up asking myself "where would you rather play?".  I'd put PB, RCD and Pine Valley all up there on the list of courses with the highest number of truly great holes.  I would also say that the Golf magazine/ Golf Digest lists have become less relevant as people have seen more of the great courses in the world.  Having said that, in reference to the Doak scale, I would guess that there are few courses on those lists that are less than "Doak 7's". 

TS

Tom_Doak

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2012, 12:54:09 PM »
Ted, you're hitting on one thing that I would make different between the Doak Scale and the Thurman Scale. The Doak Scale won't give a 10 to any course with a merely good but insignificant hole. Personally, I love Pebble Beach for its 12 or so phenomenal holes and don't care so much that 15 is just solid and 12 is a hit and hope shot. To me, missing the great holes at Pebble is missing perhaps the best collection of great holes around (though I haven't played Pine Valley), and that makes it a 10 even if you won't dream about standing on the 12th tee after your round.

Here's a question. If the Confidential Guide lists 316 courses at a Doak 6 or better, can we take a guess at where a Doak 6 ranks in the US/world? Obviously Tom Doak didn't play every course on the planet to rate them on his scale. Are there 1000 Doak 6s in the world? More? Fewer? What about in the US? I don't think of a 6 as being THAT stringent, and I don't think its definition suggests it should be. Yet, I hear people who seem to think anything outside the Top 100 lists of GolfWeek can't possibly rate above a 5...

Also, how many Doak 0s are there? I've only played one course that I would call a 0, and it was enough of a debacle to see that I'd suggest visiting 0s to be just as important for someone truly interested in architecture as visiting 10s.

Jason:

I have been working on the math related to your second paragraph, above, checking my own ratings against a few other people whose opinions I respect.  The consensus seems to be that there are nowhere near 1000 courses in the world that would get a 6 on my scale -- I think it's maybe 500 or 600 at the most.  Not all of the 5's on my scale would make the top 1000, but quite a few of them probably would.

I don't think your take on the differences between your scale and mine is entirely right, though.  It's not the case that one bad hole or one boring hole will keep a course out of the 10's, or there wouldn't even be a dozen of them; the most important thing is for the course to appeal to different kinds of golfers at different levels, and I just think that Ballybunion and Dornoch, for example, do that better than Royal County Down. 

County Down is a wonderful place -- all the 9's in my book are wonderful places -- but it's a bit intimidating for most golfers.  And I wouldn't agree with Ted that County Down [or Pebble Beach, or practically any other course] has more great holes than Cypress Point or Crystal Downs or Dornoch.  I'm starting to wonder if I agree with Ted about anything. 

Sean_A

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2012, 01:05:47 PM »
I don't think your take on the differences between your scale and mine is entirely right, though.  It's not the case that one bad hole or one boring hole will keep a course out of the 10's, or there wouldn't even be a dozen of them; the most important thing is for the course to appeal to different kinds of golfers at different levels, and I just think that Ballybunion and Dornoch, for example, do that better than Royal County Down. 

I have never heard you describe a 10 in quite this way.  I much prefer this viewpoint to the "miss a hole..." deal which always rang hollow to my ears.  I can also see, more and more, why you give TOC a 10. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Matt MacIver

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Re: Doak 9s & 10s
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2012, 01:29:03 PM »
I agree too that I've focused on the "can't miss even one hole" concept when debating a Doak 10.  I had a hard time putting Pinehurst #2 as a 10 on that basis; but for playability give me #2 and TOC all day long! 

Tom, looking forward to the new book: will the 1-10 scale remain intact?  More flavours? 

I don't think your take on the differences between your scale and mine is entirely right, though.  It's not the case that one bad hole or one boring hole will keep a course out of the 10's, or there wouldn't even be a dozen of them; the most important thing is for the course to appeal to different kinds of golfers at different levels, and I just think that Ballybunion and Dornoch, for example, do that better than Royal County Down. 

I have never heard you describe a 10 in quite this way.  I much prefer this viewpoint to the "miss a hole..." deal which always rang hollow to my ears.  I can also see, more and more, why you give TOC a 10. 

Ciao



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