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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2012, 12:37:10 AM »
I have a feeling that most of you have not played Lakeside. It is a delightful romp through the golf history of Hollywood. Far more interesting than a poorly engineered but fun to play Rustic. 

Obviously you are just playing your old, tired provocateur role, but you know not of what you speak when it comes to Rustic's "engineering."  And your petty comments are more than a little ironic given that what happened at Rustic pales in comparison to the storm damage suffered by some of your favorite LA haunts, Lakeside in particular. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jim Eder

Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2012, 10:46:03 AM »
Greg,

I did it in my own post sadly.  What a fool I am. In the past I would tend to focus on difficulty and challenge in my fav list and distance was wrongly a large input in my mind. After an additional year of learning about GCA I see the error of my way last year. Lakeside is absolutely terrific. It is at least in the category behind LA North, Riv and Rustic. And it could be #4 for me. Nice greensites, nice bunkering, the land has some movement, shotmaking is required.  It is a challenge and fun at the same time. If I had to play only Lakeside the rest of my life I would be very fortunate.

Jim Eder

Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2012, 12:07:55 PM »
I can't believe I didn't have Hillcrest in my post either. I would put Hillcrest in that group right below Rustic. It is fantastic. Great piece of land with terrific movement, wonderful greens, wonderful bunkering, have to move the ball, and a great deal of fun and challenge as well. Hillcrest rarely gets talked about either. A wonderful place. Other people on this post rightly put Hillcrest in their lists. My error.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2012, 12:21:40 PM »
I have a feeling that most of you have not played Lakeside. It is a delightful romp through the golf history of Hollywood. Far more interesting than a poorly engineered but fun to play Rustic. 

Obviously you are just playing your old, tired provocateur role, but you know not of what you speak when it comes to Rustic's "engineering."  And your petty comments are more than a little ironic given that what happened at Rustic pales in comparison to the storm damage suffered by some of your favorite LA haunts, Lakeside in particular. 

While I may be wrong I don't think you can compare the flood damage at Riviera and Lakeside to that at Rustic.  It would seem to me that Riviera and Lakeside were built before modern flood control and the development of properties in their watershed.  I'm sure California was way ahead of the curve but water retention to prevent flooding is a relatively modern practice.  It would seem that under the law Rustic today gets no more water than what it got before day one of the golf course.  What's your opinion?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2012, 01:21:20 PM »
John,

I don't know that we should derail the thread to discuss Rustic yet again.  It seems you have had a chip on your shoulder about Rustic since long before it was damaged and long before you even saw it, and I suspect that discussing it now will not change your underlying antipathy toward the idea of the place, if not for the place itself.  That said, I'd be glad to discuss it with you sometime but perhaps in a more appropriate forum.

I am curious to read more of the thoughts of you and others on some of the other Los Angeles courses, Lakeside included. Los Angeles is blessed with a few truly great courses, and as a result many of the rest sometimes get short shrift.   Like much else in Los Angeles, I sometimes feel the rest are terribly overrated and sometimes feel they are woefully underrated.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2012, 01:26:24 PM »
What are peoples thoughts on Industry Hills Ike course?
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2012, 01:29:50 PM »
John,

I don't know that we should derail the thread to discuss Rustic yet again.  It seems you have had a chip on your shoulder about Rustic since long before it was damaged and long before you even saw it, and I suspect that discussing it now will not change your underlying antipathy toward the idea of the place, if not for the place itself.  That said, I'd be glad to discuss it with you sometime but perhaps in a more appropriate forum.

I am curious to read more of the thoughts of you and others on some of the other Los Angeles courses, Lakeside included. Los Angeles is blessed with a few truly great courses, and as a result many of the rest sometimes get short shrift.   Like much else in Los Angeles, I sometimes feel the rest are terribly overrated and sometimes feel they are woefully underrated.

David,

I love Rustic and have played the course with not only you but with a friend from home.  I am not a Golfweek rater and take offense at their panning of what they once considered a top 100 course.  I just like Lakeside better.  Seems to me that Geoff and Gil may even be involved with a restoration of Lakeside so you can not claim bias against them either.

If I had a chip about Rustic why would I return time and time again when with a little effort I could simply play LACC in its stead.  A fine set of courses I have never seen.

Remember the day we played and I had the gout.  I have had some great times out there.  I'm simply an engineer by training and take special interest in that design aspect.

Jim Eder

Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2012, 01:45:35 PM »
Tim,

My take on Ike is that it is long and fairly difficult but it may lack a bit of character. I have never not enjoyed a round there though. I kind of like the Babe course as it is more interesting, it makes me think a bit more. I don't think a lot of people would suggest either as a learning experience in GCA but they can provide a nice day on the golf course. It really depends on what one is looking for but it can be a good test of golf.  I have only played each a few times so maybe it is my fault for not studying them more. I know there isn't much there but I hope that helps a bit.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2012, 01:59:57 PM »
Tim, honestly I can't stand the Ike course but I like it much better than the Babe.   I guess these courses were probably "engineering" marvels when they were built given their location on top of a giant pile of garbage, but that may go to show that quality "engineering" and quality golf design don't always work in the same direction.  

I have always found the designs disjointed and somewhat nonsensical in places, and the site too severe in places for reasonable golf.   The Ike is a course that has always tried to sell itself on difficulty, but I don't think that difficulty ought to be the main focus of a golf course.  It doesn't help my opinion that it is usually an impossibly slow pace and in carts.  I should say as way of disclaimer that I haven't played there in over a decade, for the reasons above.  

Just my honest opinion as always.

_______________________________________________________________________________

John,

I have no problem with you or anyone touting Lakeside and it doesn't bother me a bit you think it a better course than Rustic. I am sure you are not alone in your assessment. One could make an argument for many of supposed second tier clubs around LA.  My personal feeling is that if some of these courses were located in other parts of the country they'd get a lot more love.  Too bad you haven't called to play Rustic or elsewhere when you are in town, because I did very much enjoy our round at Rustic.

I just don't understand the repeated petty jabs at what you call the "poor engineering."  They suggest to me that while you like the course itself, the chip on your shoulder nonetheless remains about the idea of the place.  You used to post about it all the time before you even played it, and it seems to represent something you don't like about the way people think of minimalist design.  I know that has nothing to do with your true feelings on the merits of the course, but that makes it all the more peculiar.

As for the supposedly "poor engineering," have you considered what "proper engineering" might have entailed?    How might have "proper engineering" impacted the design? The cost?  The permitting?  The environmental restrictions?  Even the very existence of the course?  

Have you considered the cost of "engineering" around a wash that the designers were not allowed to touch?  Have you considered the cost-benefit analysis of "engineering" for the very slight possibility of a devastating fire followed by a unprecedented torrential rainfall-- over three feet of rain a few weeks?    Even in hindsight, have you compared the relatively small cost of repair with what it would have cost to "engineer" around the potential problem in the first place?   Is it really "poor engineering" if the damage was repaired for a fraction of what would have been the cost of engineering around the improbable disaster in the first place?

You and I are both from rural areas and we are both well aware that sometimes nature has her way with things.   Sometimes the best and most economical "engineering" is to clean up the mess after the damage is done.  
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 02:27:05 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2012, 03:12:52 PM »

Too bad you haven't called to play Rustic or elsewhere when you are in town, because I did very much enjoy our round at Rustic.


Dave,

I haven't been to LA since the last time we played.  Years and years ago.  My daughter now lives in Sydney where I hear the golf is much better.  The LA scene is so 00's for me.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2012, 03:56:23 PM »
The "LA scene" will be disappointed to hear you have passed it by.

Sydney is a nice place. You should go visit your daughter and play a little golf. 

Since you brought it up, I am curious as to your thoughts on some of my questions above, which were only partially rhetorical.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2012, 04:59:24 PM »
The "LA scene" will be disappointed to hear you have passed it by.

Sydney is a nice place. You should go visit your daughter and play a little golf. 

Since you brought it up, I am curious as to your thoughts on some of my questions above, which were only partially rhetorical.

I've thought about your questions for some time and have come to the conclusion that I don't have any reasonable answers. Perhaps the course was built and rebuilt so cheaply that poor engineering was the most economical solution which if true is fine engineering in its own right.  I know most engineers don't like a luck factor but it doesn't hurt if you can get it.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top 20 Courses in the LA area?
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2012, 05:40:44 PM »
I know most engineers don't like a luck factor . . .

This may be reason enough to keep engineering and golf course design separate.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)