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jeffwarne

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2012, 04:30:44 AM »

This is the part of the argument that was most interesting to me, and which got skipped over entirely, except for Patrick railing about Shinnecock.  Why did the USGA decide to go back to Merion and then decide that they couldn't take Merion as it was, but had to change it?  Why are the governing bodies so afraid of playing any course for a championship without lengthening it?  

Are they afraid that someone will shoot low scores and it will be attributed to the changes in equipment?

Tom Doak,

You're a bright guy, how long did it take you to figure that out ?


And to all the young stud players who have chimed in here, starting with Brian:  what do you really think the scoring difference would be over four days between the tees you played and the 6800 yard tees Tom Paul was talking about?  

Is the course significantly different for you because of the new tees?  Is it significantly better, and if so, why?

Longer and more difficult ?  Yes.  Better ?  Depends upon the context.  Most would think not.


They didn't solve the equipment problem with the groove rules? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Brian Colbert

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2012, 09:56:01 AM »
David,

I appreciate the photos you dug up on this. However, I would respectfully like to point out according to that Sports Illustrated photo Jones hit 3-iron. I hit 2-iron from the new tee but the pin was all the way at the back of the green, had the pin been where the photo indicates I would have hit a 3 as well. Additionally, what you can't see in those images is a tee of similar length (I would say about 230-240) that is on the same line as the original tee box but about even with the 8th green (it would be below and to the left of the lower left corner of the photos you have provided). That would also be about a 3-iron. I don't know how many days they will use each tee box because I am not Mike Davis but I imagine they will move it around a fair amount. When they inevitably tuck that pin behind the left bunker there is no way they can use that back left tee. When they put the pin on the front of the green, sure. I still think it's the third most difficult par-3 on the course from all the way back though.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2012, 10:11:27 AM »
David,

I appreciate the photos you dug up on this. However, I would respectfully like to point out according to that Sports Illustrated photo Jones hit 3-iron. I hit 2-iron from the new tee but the pin was all the way at the back of the green, had the pin been where the photo indicates I would have hit a 3 as well. Additionally, what you can't see in those images is a tee of similar length (I would say about 230-240) that is on the same line as the original tee box but about even with the 8th green (it would be below and to the left of the lower left corner of the photos you have provided). That would also be about a 3-iron. I don't know how many days they will use each tee box because I am not Mike Davis but I imagine they will move it around a fair amount. When they inevitably tuck that pin behind the left bunker there is no way they can use that back left tee. When they put the pin on the front of the green, sure. I still think it's the third most difficult par-3 on the course from all the way back though.

I was under the impression the back tee to the right of the 8th green plays less than 200 yards, maybe 190.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2012, 10:15:16 AM »
Peter

Vis a vis giving a rat's arse re: the architecture, most 100+ year old buildings in the UK were built for a population with an average height of say 5' 6".  If you want these houses to be used by modern society, is there any reason why the doors can't be re-modelled to accomodate taller people?  If you want 100+ year old golf courses to be used and respected by elite modern players, shouldn't the doors be raised on them too?

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Peter Pallotta

Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2012, 11:23:18 AM »
Rich - Ive never played Merion, but Jamie's post describes a radically remade experience (e.g. new lines off the tee, shifted and dramatically narrowed fairways, a loss of options/choices throughout, and of course much longer).  It would be like a 100+ year old building in the UK having not only its doors remodelled, but several of its interior walls knocked out (to give the more 'open concept' today's high end purchasers seem to want), the study/library demolished to accomodate an new en-suite bath in the master bedroom (to appeal to the same clientele), the fireplaces in every room bricked up (since high end users want central heat and air conditioning), and the fading and uneven plaster ripped out and replaced by perfectly dull drywall. Sure, that's what the elite have come to expect (and "respect"...thought you'd slip that in there, did you :)), but it begs the question: if the elite wanted a boring new house, why didn't they just go and buy a boring new house instead of proclaiming their love for great old buildings while at the same time tearing the heart and soul out of them. To borrow from Bogie in Casablanca: it's not a thief I mind, it's a cut-rate thief.     

Peter

JESII

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2012, 11:28:56 AM »
The conversation around RESPECT should be the central theme to these debates.

I understand everything drives these decisions other than caring if the players respect the course...after all, isn't that the justification for protecting par?

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2012, 11:30:50 AM »
Old buildings do have souls, Peter, but they are old souls.  Who else but you and I would actually sacrifice a bathroom for a library, given that you can largely replicate a library on your computer, but it's damn hard to get rid of bodily wastes if all you have in your house is a library....
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Peter Pallotta

Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2012, 11:39:01 AM »
Jim - yup, and that's why I thought Rich very clever for adding the word into the mix. Is there anything more futile and self defeating in life than behaving (or trying to behave, twisting oneself up in knots) in a manner that we hope will ensure that others respect us?  It's like very carefully dressing up as a clown until we have everything (including the big smiley face) just right, and then getting mad when the people we meet laugh at us and show disrespect. And, once we're in the clown outfit, we'll never know whether they're laughing at us or at the outfit. I'm surprised a course/club as old and respected as Merion seems so needy and insecure.

Peter

PS - just saw your post, Rich.  Ah, you're right....but I can't help feeling: what does it profit a man to gain the whole world (and a second bath) and lose his (old) soul?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 11:41:44 AM by PPallotta »

JMEvensky

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2012, 11:43:42 AM »

The conversation around RESPECT should be the central theme to these debates.



But wouldn't there be different things to respect?

The members at MGC may respect their golf course's reputation for difficulty more than its architectural pedigree.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2012, 12:15:43 PM »
Maybe...I think they know they can revert back to whichever version of the golf course they want anytime they want. When you look at what the guys would do with no changes it makes for a compelling case to start the process...determining when enough is enough is the challenge.

Unfortunately it's just a matter of opinion. There's no factual case to be made here.

I think they went too far in several areas...areas that will not necessarily add interest or any measurable score. I would take Brian's estimates on the increased difficulty per hole per day and divide them by 4.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM »
Maybe...I think they know they can revert back to whichever version of the golf course they want anytime they want. When you look at what the guys would do with no changes it makes for a compelling case to start the process...determining when enough is enough is the challenge.

Unfortunately it's just a matter of opinion. There's no factual case to be made here.

I think they went too far in several areas...areas that will not necessarily add interest or any measurable score. I would take Brian's estimates on the increased difficulty per hole per day and divide them by 4.

I'm not saying I agree with my idea,but it's not unreasonable.Only the guys paying dues at MGC get to vote on what is/isn't important to them.

"When enough is enough" is the $64 question.I'm like you in that I think even really good amateurs sometimes underestimate just how good PGAT players are.If your estimate is correct,then somebody has spent a lot of money for very little added scoring resistance.

That,to me,would be the greatest sin of all--disfigure a golf course in the name of protecting par and have somebody shoot 265 anyway.Then everybody loses.

JESII

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2012, 12:50:53 PM »
Yep.

I think 265 is a real possibility in soft conditions but 275 would win if it were firm and the fairways were 60 yards wide...we'll never get to find that out.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2012, 12:59:04 PM »
David,

I appreciate the photos you dug up on this. However, I would respectfully like to point out according to that Sports Illustrated photo Jones hit 3-iron. I hit 2-iron from the new tee but the pin was all the way at the back of the green, had the pin been where the photo indicates I would have hit a 3 as well. Additionally, what you can't see in those images is a tee of similar length (I would say about 230-240) that is on the same line as the original tee box but about even with the 8th green (it would be below and to the left of the lower left corner of the photos you have provided). That would also be about a 3-iron. I don't know how many days they will use each tee box because I am not Mike Davis but I imagine they will move it around a fair amount. When they inevitably tuck that pin behind the left bunker there is no way they can use that back left tee. When they put the pin on the front of the green, sure. I still think it's the third most difficult par-3 on the course from all the way back though.

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Brian.  I think perhaps though you are mistaken about two of your main assumptions:  the distance of the original holes, and the equivalent clubs.  

1.  The Distance of 9th Hole. In 1930 the ninth hole was listed at 170 yards, and Merion had a tendency to overstate the actual yardages (due at least in part to a faulty measuring methodology/philosophy.).  At best the tee toward the right side of the 8th green could be stretched to around 175-180 yards.  (This is judging not only by the photographs, but also architectural renderings.)   Whatever the exact yardage it was a far cry shorter than the 230-240 yards you estimate.

2.  Comparing Old Clubs with New. As for club selection, I understand the logic behind equating your modern 3 iron and the "No. 3 iron" hit by Bobby Jones, but the two not any more equivalent  than you and I are equivalent in golfing ability. This was the dawn of numbered and matched sets, and the "No. 3" designation meant that it was meant to approximate the third shortest iron in a set appropriate for most golfers, whereas today's three iron is generally the longest iron in a standard set, if it is included at all. Jones was a traditionalist and didn't carry a matched set, and for him the "No. 3 Iron" was probably the fourth shortest Iron in his set.  Ralph Livingston III, listed the following clubs as used by Jones in 1926-1930:  

"The Irons were; A Driving Mashie, a No. 1-Iron, a No. 2-Iron (38 1/4′ long, 24 degrees loft), a Mashie Iron, a No. 4-Iron (36 3/8′ long, 31 degrees loft), and a Mashie (36 1/4′ long, 35 degrees loft), a Spade Mashie (36 1/4′, 39 degrees loft), Mashie Niblick (34 1/4′, 42 degrees loft), and a Niblick (35 1/4′, 50 degrees loft).
. . .
The 2- Iron at 24 degrees would match a modern 4-Iron.
Mashie Irons are usually about 27 degrees and it would match to a 5-Iron.
The 4-Iron at 31 degrees matches to a 6-Iron.
The Mashie at 36 degrees is between the 7 and 8-Iron.
The Spade Mashie at 39 degrees is like a weak 8-Iron.
The Mashie Niblick at 42 degrees matches well to a modern 9-Iron, except for the short shaft.
The Niblick at 50 degrees falls about half way between a PW and SW."

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/feature-interview-with-ralph-livingston/
[Jones may also have sometimes carried a funky looking concave sand club that looked a bit like a soup ladle.]

So according to Ralph, Jones' "No. 3 Iron" or "Mashie Iron"  would be about the equivalent of a 27 degrees, which in 2004 he thought to be about a five iron. That'd be a pretty weak five iron by the standards of today's pros, wouldn't it?   I am hardly the expert as compared to Ralph, but I own and have played dozens of clubs from that era (even once at Merion) and I'd generally agree with his conversions.  With the constant creep toward less loft per club number, I'd say it is closer to a modern six iron.   From an easier angle.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 01:01:49 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #88 on: June 27, 2012, 01:18:43 PM »
One thing I want to be clear about regarding my perspective on this whole thing.  I am not out to name call, attack, or impugn the integrity of Merion's membership or the USGA.   I think it is too much to say that "neither Merion nor the USGA actually gives a rat's a-- about the architecture."   I have no doubt that they do care about the architecture and the history. Unfortunately the USGA's inability and/or unwillingness to deal with the technology issue has placed everyone in an impossible spot. The best players no longer fit on our best courses.  Yet the USGA seems to want to try to jury rig the courses to make them fit whether they do or not, and this is what I don't understand.  I'd much rather see the pros play the course Jones played (or even its reasonable equivalent) than have them worry about preserving par by manipulating fairway widths and angles and stretching par threes well past the point of their reasonable equivalents.  If they aren't going to play the same course as Jones played, then what is the point of having the tournament at Merion?  

Tom Doak asks the key question, and I too am curious as to why they are doing this?  What exactly are they trying to prove?   What is really being "protected" or "respected" here, except for an arbitrary par value?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 01:24:42 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #89 on: June 27, 2012, 01:40:21 PM »
David,

If you want to have a technology debate, fine. I'll bow out.

Otherwise, why don't you post the hole lengths (your interpretation of them as opposed to what may have been listed) and I'll tell you what the approach club would be to each hole based on the features on the hole. That might put your ideal into perspective...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2012, 01:55:28 PM »
Jim,  I don't really want to have the technology debate either, but the issue is root of all of these discussions.  Look how many posts above and on other threads use the changes in the equipment to justify the changes in the course.  That said, I agree we should set aside addressing it directly. 

As for listing the hole lengths, do you mean the hole lengths from 1930?  I can list them if you you want, but I do realize that some reasonable lengthening might be expected over the past 70 years.   Just not from 175 yards to 275 yards on a par 3!

Alternatively, since we have the reported clubs Jones hit, and since Ralph Livingston has researched the issue and provided us with club equivalents, maybe we could also figure out how long each hole would have to be to provide the equivalent "shot values."   We may have to make a few assumptions here or there, but I think we could come up with something pretty interesting.

If you want I can try it your way with the 1930 hole lengths first, using the Golf Illustrated article as a guide.   i will try and get to it in a bit . . .
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2012, 02:01:43 PM »
You know, I still have some of those USGA/R&A-provided restricted flight balls if anybody would like to have a go at Merion with more traditional equipment...

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2012, 02:06:15 PM »
David,

Do you think Bobby Jones' "2 iron" would be easier or more difficult to hit well than today's 17 or 18 degree hybrid/rescue clubs?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2012, 02:09:01 PM »
Mr. Doak,

I just wrote out a long drawn-out response to your questions but my session timed out and I lost it (#@#!) so here are the cliff notes:

#3: +.33
#4: 0
#5: +.5
#6: +.25
#9: +.33
#14: +.5
#17: +.33
#18: +.5

Probably about a 2.75 shot difference per day in my opinion. I think the course is better from the new tee boxes (other than perhaps 14, which I think is a bit gimmicky) for the tour-caliber player because it returns the course to its original "shot values." 9 is really not that much behind the other box on the same line (maybe about 40 yds), to the point that they had the actual markers on the very back box. I think 3 and 17 will play just a bit higher, it's already a long club from the original tee! Another example of the definite improvement is when I played 18 the first time from the original back tee I was about 80 yards past the Hogan plate. When I played it on Saturday, I was pretty much right even with it.

Brian:

Thank you for taking the time to make these estimates, but I think the influence of the changes is exaggerated in your mind, if you really believe the changes will make an ELEVEN SHOT difference in the winning score over four days.  It might make an 11-shot difference for someone like me, but my guess for the pros would be more along the lines of Jim Sullivan's estimate, or at most, one shot on each of the holes where signifcant changes were made.  I would love to have a few more very good players chime in on this.  My thought has always been that the USGA overdoes the changes because they are afraid of the numbers, but that the changes don't make as much difference as they think.

If your estimates were right on, and technology changes have made that much difference to elite players, then their computed handicaps would be two or three shots better than the best players of 20 years ago, and scoring averages on Tour would have dipped precipitously.  Was the winner of the Vardon Trophy last year shooting 2.75 strokes per round lower than Nicklaus and Trevino used to?

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2012, 02:16:50 PM »
Was the winner of the Vardon Trophy last year shooting 2.75 strokes per round lower than Nicklaus and Trevino used to?

Tom

1.  What was the average course rating when Nicklaus and Trevino were winning the Vardon?

2.  What is the average course rating the pros play on now?

My guess is that the differrence between 2. and 1. above was at least 2.75 strokes, given the huge differences in both length and difficulty of course set up (rough, green speeds, etc.), but, like Pat Mucci, there is always an infintesimal chance that I am wrong.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Peter Pallotta

Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2012, 02:19:55 PM »
David - I know I'm being too black and white about this, but you had a line in a recent post that gets right to it, i.e. "The best players no longer fit on our best courses." And that's true, and I know it and you know it and everyone -- including the USGA and Merion -- seems to know it. And that's precisely what troubles me, on principle more than on passion. Why not simply admit what we know, admit this to be the case, and go and play a new (better suited) course instead of marring (forever, my guess would be) the very type of old, great course everyone -- Merion and the USGA included -- says they love.  And since I can't answer the whys of that, I blamed it on ego and pride and money.  Anyway, I'll bow out now -- there are plenty of folks on this thread who know/understand more about the course and what it's doing than I do.

Peter

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2012, 02:32:07 PM »
David,

Do you think Bobby Jones' "2 iron" would be easier or more difficult to hit well than today's 17 or 18 degree hybrid/rescue clubs?

Jim,  I don't know about much about rescue clubs, but Bobby Jones "No. 2 Iron" reportedly had 24 degrees loft, making it around a modern 4 iron or perhaps even between a 4 and 5 iron.  For a top player I think the "No. 2 Iron" would have been only marginally more difficult to hit than the modern equivalent, requiring a different, smoother, more rhythmic swing.  But Bobby Jones had that, and so did other top golfers of the time.  (And these were beautifully crafted clubs, often with shafts specially selected by Jones himself. They performed.) 

What do you think?  Do top players really use rescue clubs to replace irons with 24 degrees loft?   Don't those guys carry 4 irons and/or 5 irons?


_______________________________________

Peter,  I agree with you in principle.   I am just hoping the conversation can continue to be productive without it getting nasty.  In my experience, once we start calling names and assigning motivations things tend to go down hill pretty quickly, especially in discussions at all relating to Merion. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

ChipOat

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Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2012, 02:44:55 PM »
Jim Sullivan & David Moriarty,

My observation is based on many years of purely anecdotal evidence watching long hitters, VERY long hitters and cashmere insert guys, too.  This includes at Merion and other tour venues.

The longest hitters to ever play Merion were the flat belly college kids in the 2005 Am -some of the distances they hit it were REALLY unreal.  Check with Tom Paul to verify that.  The reason is that these pre-tour uber talents simply SWING harder in college.  They dial it back once they hit the big time since keeping it in play becomes even more critical.  So, it was my observation that the difference on clubs is 1/2 club greater for someone who's going at it flat-out than an equally long tour player who is more concerned with distance control.

As for short hitters, the downhill on #'s 9 and 17 is worth a single club - max (I'm a short hitter who has played with several flat bellys referred to above).

Pat Mucci:

I really do believe that Merion will re-widen the fairways following the 2013 event.  As you know, it's more complicated, and expensive, than just lowering the mowers, so September, 2013 is not a realistic target for completion.  But I'll wager a dinner with Tom Paul (loser must attend and buy) that September 2014 will see the transformation you seek.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #98 on: June 27, 2012, 02:56:25 PM »
David,

I think a "2 irons" were 24* because the more flexibile shafts decrease the effective loft at impact...not just because they felt like it. The modern day equivalent would be a 1 iron and yes, hybrids replaced 1 irons...

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just finished 18 at Merion
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2012, 03:29:40 PM »
chipoat:  play along here.   :)

What if the tourney is a smashing success.  The weather is perfect so fast and firm really puts the pressure on tee shots, etc.  And the finish is exciting and the players are gushing about the course and the setup.  And then being interviewed by Costas after the trophy presentation, Mike Davis says he could easily see Merion being considered for another US Open.  Do the fairways get widened in 2014?

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

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