Streamsong

[Greg Tallman]

Is it just me or does the coore course look to be on the more rugged part of the property?

[Tom_Doak]

Is it just me or does the coore course look to be on the more rugged part of the property?

Greg:

That's not just you.  It's not 100% that way, but generally speaking, Bill took the more rugged ground.  I think he thought that would surprise a lot of people, but you'd have to ask him that question; he has always credited picking the Red course to Jimbo Wright's expressed desire to work on the more difficult piece of ground so he'd be needed longer.

[Greg Tallman]

Is it just me or does the coore course look to be on the more rugged part of the property?

Greg:

That's not just you.  It's not 100% that way, but generally speaking, Bill took the more rugged ground.  I think he thought that would surprise a lot of people, but you'd have to ask him that question; he has always credited picking the Red course to Jimbo Wright's expressed desire to work on the more difficult piece of ground so he'd be needed longer.

I would guss jimbo is a shaper who prefers florida to china?

[Tom_Doak]

Is it just me or does the coore course look to be on the more rugged part of the property?

Greg:

That's not just you.  It's not 100% that way, but generally speaking, Bill took the more rugged ground.  I think he thought that would surprise a lot of people, but you'd have to ask him that question; he has always credited picking the Red course to Jimbo Wright's expressed desire to work on the more difficult piece of ground so he'd be needed longer.

I would guss jimbo is a shaper who prefers florida to china?

If you know any who prefer it the other way around, send them my contact info.

[Jason Thurman]

Do we know anything about the prices at Streamsong yet?

[Kris Shreiner]

Jud,

Agreed. Who said anything about faux U.K. clubhouses being involved? It's about being complimentary to the given golf environment, not REPLICATING something just because it is found elsewhere.

John,

As a Florida resident the past 9 years, I'm familiar with the golf seasons there. Carts as the major mode of play can often detract from what most feel, experience wise, when they are playing "special"golf.

With a quality caddie dymamic in the mix, this can be blunted and even overcome, but as a guy who deeply studies this stuff, I look to the most financially successful destination models in the last 15 years, Bandon and Kinsbarns...NEITHER has the cart featured prominently. This irrefutable fact runs DEAD AGAINST what all the industry "Experts" would try mightly to convince you of. Wonder why? Because despite the PR spin to the contrary, great ground AND caddie golf of quality, in whatever model works best, DEFINES the truly great golf experiences.

You can play the most beautiful courses in the world, even in a cart, or walking yourself...but I'm sorry, unless you are a caddie hater(and there are plenty out there) or are socially challenged...it just isn't the same level. Need confirmation? Reel off ANY list of the best courses, worldwide, and caddie golf is present at a majority of them. Of those that don't, all would be enhanced AND their standing improved, with a quality caddie dymanic in play.


Cheers,
Kris

[Howard Riefs]

Do we know anything about the prices at Streamsong yet?

Averages $175/round. More in winter. Less in summer

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-courses/blogs/wheres-matty-g/2012/05/the-skinny-on-streamsong.html

[Tom_Doak]

I don't know what the green fees will be on opening day; odd that it doesn't show up on the tee time request page.  However, I was told last week that the official Opening Day for the public is scheduled for Friday, December 14, 2012.

[John_Cullum]

The problem with caddies at Streamsong will be the location. It's a pretty long way from any meaningful population of people to fill the corps

[Tom_Doak]

The problem with caddies at Streamsong will be the location. It's a pretty long way from any meaningful population of people to fill the corps

??   It is about a half hour's drive from Lakeland, which has a population of 94,000.  That's not an easy drive, but not out of the question for a good job.  Not like in Scotland, but not much different than Bandon [a bit further drive than from Coos Bay, for a lot more people].

[John_Cullum]

The problem with caddies at Streamsong will be the location. It's a pretty long way from any meaningful population of people to fill the corps

??   It is about a half hour's drive from Lakeland, which has a population of 94,000.  That's not an easy drive, but not out of the question for a good job.  Not like in Scotland, but not much different than Bandon [a bit further drive than from Coos Bay, for a lot more people].

Lakeland to Streamsong is about 30 miles

[Kris Shreiner]

John,

No more than it was at Bandon. There is more population there than you think. Jobs are scarce in that area. Lakeland is about 50 minutes drive, and there are many smaller communities slightly closer. Several of my Pebble Beach caddy buddies make a drive that long EVERYDAY.

Any quality caddie program, from the outset, will have: a mix of experienced, incomer caddies who have done the job for a living, the college and career change types of caliber, and then the local candidates, youger and older, which are melded into a cohesive, compentent team to deliver caddie golf in a solid presentation. It isn't easy and few really know how to do it. That's why the outsource, white suit crowd model has business, though their product is certainly not something to emulate.

Bandon and Kingsbarns had VERY mediocre programs when they started. They were fortunate. Times were different. That same approach, in today's crowded golf destination market will be punished...severely. No caddies there at Streamsong = a financial death sentence. The ground is special. It requires thought and knowledge to enjoy it to the fullest. Most visiting golfers will be confronted with a type of golf they don't see often. Many, unless they've been to Bandon or abroad, will NEVER have seen it. The courses will not be easy, especially in the wind, combined with the warmer conditions, playing over firm ground.

Quality caddies can greatly ease the strain and quickly put players in a nice comfort level. If folks are enjoying themselves, even when the course is kicking their ass a bit, they come away pleased with the experience. It's that simple. No cart, alone, can deliver that.

So few in the industry get it. Maybe Streamsong will...I hope they do.

Cheers,
Kris

[John_Cullum]

We'll see. The one thing the area has is a bunch of PGA pros from up north looking forwork in the winter. That will help more than anything

[Greg Tallman]

Lived in Lakeland for many years, there will be no shortage of people to pull from for a caddie program at Streamsong. They will have more applicants than they know what to do with.

The last several comments make me feel better about my recent decision to ditch the GPS units and start up a caddie/forecaddie program. For those that think having the nearest popultaiton center 30 miles away as a problem... try having to develop a caddie program from a population with little or no knowledge of the game. Should be fun. First week - Calssroom sessions... this is a golf driver... this is a wedge...   . Regardless it will be fun and a nice addition to The Ocean Course and once we teach them proper caddying there will be less in the way of, how you say, "personality" to deal with on a daily basis as is typically the case.

[Joe Bausch]

Was there ever a caddie program at World Woods?

[Kris Shreiner]

PGA professionals as caddies doesn't ensure anything, except...that you have some PGA professionals as caddies. There are a lot more skillsets, involved than just golf knowledge, to being a quality caddie. SELFLESSNESS, the ability to give a total, engaged effort, WITH PERSONALITY...AND good information...that is what makes for a great caddie experience at a destination (or Private) golf facility.

I have many friends who are PGA professionals, but frankly, and they admit it themselves, quite a few shouldn't be in the business. There's an art to being a top caddie. IT TAKES YEARS; but a competent level can certainly be reached, within a year or two, with candidates of caliber that are properly selected and mentored. Age and years one has caddied are IRRELEVANT: effort, passion and zeal to learn the craft are what count most.

Streamsong, according to the Mosaic company, was to be a jobs creator for COMMUNITY folk. Loading up a caddie staff with mostly outsiders, ESPECIALLY folks who already have other jobs, is hardly going to deliver on that promise. That's easy, and often the out-source model's way.
To develop and evolve a differencemaker for the community requires much more effort, but the rewards are exponentially greater.

Greg,

A warm hello to a fellow WVU alum! Ready for the BIG XII pards? I'm looking to head to Austin for the UT game, you planning on hitting that one?
Congrats for taking on trying to set up a caddie program. It will be work, but done properly you'll profit in more ways than you can imagine. I'll IM you my contact info and we can chat.

By the way, don't think that PERSONALITY is a problem with caddie development. It is the BIGGEST asset in delivering quality, memorable golf experiences. Sure, caddies need to know how to do a competent job, but HOW they do it, with VARIETY and some FLAIR when prudent, matters. It comes down to hiring folks that have good people skills and are able to quickly determine what the player wants. Drones that "know" golf are abundent in the game; personalities with passion for what they do, and are eager to learn AND share the game with others...they are in short supply. Same for caddies. My view has always been...bring a smile, good attitude and hustle to the game...we can teach you the rest.

Golf is a people game. Always has been.  Destination golf is more about the memories business than anything else. Quality caddies give the course its human soul. They bring it to life, elevate its high notes AND help soften the tough moments. They add humor to the game and so much more.

WELL TREATED, properly mentored caddies, that HAVE personality, and are delivering a memorable day to folks, are ANY golf destination's  best on-course asset. If the superintendent and the crew are presenting the course well, and everyone else is doing their job, the quality caddie experience seals the deal in the "great place" department. Golfers leave glad they came, often return, AND tell others they need to visit! It really gets no better than that.

Joe,

I'm not certain, but I highly doubt it. If there was, it was weak. Otherwise, it would still be there AND World Woods would have a much higher profile! That facility, from what you and others describe to me, is a perfect example of what not having a quality caddie program can cost a place. Now to be fair, caddie programs AREN'T a fit for every golf destination. If the golf architecture isn't of enough caliber, or the pricing/value of the model desired is on the lower, thrift scale...it won't flourish.

Recognize as well, I'm NOT a mandatory caddie proponent. That said, I FIRMLY believe if a golf facility has the ingredients to support a quality caddie program, and it is properly promoted...IT WILL flourish. Golfers WILL value it and HAPPILY pay for the caddie. Allow choice.

Cheers,

Kris

[John_Cullum]

There are a lot more skillsets, involved than just golf knowledge, to being a quality caddie. SELFLESSNESS, the ability to give a total, engaged effort, WITH PERSONALITY...AND good information...that is what makes for a great caddie experience at a destination (or Private) golf facility.

Well, Lakeland is known far and wide for having workers with those skill sets

[Greg Tallman]

PGA professionals as caddies doesn't ensure anything, except...that you have some PGA professionals as caddies. There are a lot more skillsets, involved than just golf knowledge, to being a quality caddie. SELFLESSNESS, the ability to give a total, engaged effort, WITH PERSONALITY...AND good information...that is what makes for a great caddie experience at a destination (or Private) golf facility.

I have many friends who are PGA professionals, but frankly, and they admit it themselves, quite a few shouldn't be in the business. There's an art to being a top caddie. IT TAKES YEARS; but a competent level can certainly be reached, within a year or two, with candidates of caliber that are properly selected and mentored. Age and years one has caddied are IRRELEVANT: effort, passion and zeal to learn the craft are what count most.

Streamsong, according to the Mosaic company, was to be a jobs creator for COMMUNITY folk. Loading up a caddie staff with mostly outsiders, ESPECIALLY folks who already have other jobs, is hardly going to deliver on that promise. That's easy, and often the out-source model's way.
To develop and evolve a differencemaker for the community requires much more effort, but the rewards are exponentially greater.

Greg,

A warm hello to a fellow WVU alum! Ready for the BIG XII pards? I'm looking to head to Austin for the UT game, you planning on hitting that one?
Congrats for taking on trying to set up a caddie program. It will be work, but done properly you'll profit in more ways than you can imagine. I'll IM you my contact info and we can chat.

By the way, don't think that PERSONALITY is a problem with caddie development. It is the BIGGEST asset in delivering quality, memorable golf experiences. Sure, caddies need to know how to do a competent job, but HOW they do it, with VARIETY and some FLAIR when prudent, matters. It comes down to hiring folks that have good people skills and are able to quickly determine what the player wants. Drones that "know" golf are abundent in the game; personalities with passion for what they do, and are eager to learn AND share the game with others...they are in short supply. Same for caddies. My view has always been...bring a smile, good attitude and hustle to the game...we can teach you the rest.

Golf is a people game. Always has been.  Destination golf is more about the memories business than anything else. Quality caddies give the course its human soul. They bring it to life, elevate its high notes AND help soften the tough moments. They add humor to the game and so much more.

WELL TREATED, properly mentored caddies, that HAVE personality, and are delivering a memorable day to folks, are ANY golf destination's  best on-course asset. If the superintendent and the crew are presenting the course well, and everyone else is doing their job, the quality caddie experience seals the deal in the "great place" department. Golfers leave glad they came, often return, AND tell others they need to visit! It really gets no better than that.

Joe,

I'm not certain, but I highly doubt it. If there was, it was weak. Otherwise, it would still be there AND World Woods would have a much higher profile! That facility, from what you and others describe to me, is a perfect example of what not having a quality caddie program can cost a place. Now to be fair, caddie programs AREN'T a fit for every golf destination. If the golf architecture isn't of enough caliber, or the pricing/value of the model desired is on the lower, thrift scale...it won't flourish.

Recognize as well, I'm NOT a mandatory caddie proponent. That said, I FIRMLY believe if a golf facility has the ingredients to support a quality caddie program, and it is properly promoted...IT WILL flourish. Golfers WILL value it and HAPPILY pay for the caddie. Allow choice.

Cheers,

Kris

Kris, not an alum actually... no golf program to pay the freight! Hopefully we will be getting golf back beginning in 2013.

In terms of what makes a good caddie, I do not disagree but too much personality can certainly be a drawback... too many trying to be entertainers from my experiences. Not looking for a "drone" but those that would certainly that would err on the side of saying nothing versus being a problem. It's one thing for a mid 50s Scottish lifetime caddie to come up with a biting quip about your game or recent shot but quite abnother for a younger kid to do so.

Being in a foreign country where language presents an issue, the local nightlife presents an issue and the intentions of many a  guest presents an issue and you begin to understand my preference for the quieter type caddie.

Definitely making it to Austin this year. Looking at Marshall, Texas and maybe Kansas State games this season. Cannot get away for the OU game which is killing me.

[Stephen Davis]

Is it just me or does the coore course look to be on the more rugged part of the property?

Greg:

That's not just you.  It's not 100% that way, but generally speaking, Bill took the more rugged ground.  I think he thought that would surprise a lot of people, but you'd have to ask him that question; he has always credited picking the Red course to Jimbo Wright's expressed desire to work on the more difficult piece of ground so he'd be needed longer.

I would guss jimbo is a shaper who prefers florida to china?

If you know any who prefer it the other way around, send them my contact info.

Tom,

I prefer China to Florida, but alas I am not a shaper 

[Michael Burrows]

Jimbo is a good ole Texas boy. It was great getting to know him, Jeff Bradley and Keith Rhebb on this job. It's easier to go home for a 3 day weekend once or twice a month being in Florida than if you were in China of course.

I live in Lakeland and its 22 mile to drive for me. No where near a 50 minute drive someone mention unless you have to wait on a train.

[Kris Shreiner]

Michael B,

Thanks for the mileage/time check.  I've not physically made that Lakeland-Streamsong commute, so I wasn't sure. It's kind of country down that way, what with some of those backroads, but I imagine you can fly on them if you want. It's a piece of cake to commute from that area for a good caddie job from what you describe, and I'm not even taking into account the closer, smaller towns in the area.

John,

C'mon pards, I've stated all along, A MIX of incomer vets AND locals is the call there at Streamsong. Again, you're not giving the area much credit. The Mocs of Florida Southern, who I believe recently won an NCAA D2 or D3 National Championship, are right there in that Lakeland area. Florida's High School golf programs in the area are LOADED with good kids that know the game and can play. Remember, Streamsong is only and hour and change from Tampa and Orlando, two golf giants...even if most of the GCA is substandard in relation to our lofty expectations.

It will come down to who's crafting that caddie program, and how well they understand all the layers that are involved in delivering one that can quickly evolve into one of consistent caliber.. with a deep bench.

Cheers,
Kris
 

[Eric Strulowitz]

Can't wait to visit Steamsong.   I hope that someone will organize a GCA outing,  it would be a great venue to spend a few days. and I bet we could get a large, enthusiastic group.

[David Kelly]

Was there ever a caddie program at World Woods?

Definitely no.  I started playing World Woods right when it opened and there were never caddies.  They also highly discouraged walking and maybe didn't allow it.  I walked both courses the first time I was there but my playing partner drove a cart with my bag on it. 

[Greg Tallman]

Was there ever a caddie program at World Woods?

Definitely no.  I started playing World Woods right when it opened and there were never caddies.  They also highly discouraged walking and maybe didn't allow it.  I walked both courses the first time I was there but my playing partner drove a cart with my bag on it. 

One of many things where WW missed a window of opportunity back in the day. The place has not changed in 16 years. Played there in December, walked into the same clubhouse with seemingly the same carpet, tables, chairs and crotchety locals as 16 years ago. I commented to my buddy... "Wow, not a thing has changed here" to which one of the crotchety locals shoots back "Nope and why the hell should it?".. I then tried to order a Diet Coke... but no luck... "Haven't went to the store yet this morning." so I wink at the local and smile... "There ya go."

So much potential there. Very similar to Streamsong in terms of proximity to population centers. looks like Streamsong has the right plan... may revisit looking into WW in a couple of years.

[Cliff Hamm]

But you can play WW for $100 or so.  Personally, I'll forgo the caddie, the nice clubhouse and even the diet Coke for tremendous golf at a more than reasonable price.