[David Harshbarger]

Now that you don't have to manage your kit in the crook of your elbow, is the Golf Bag the canary in the Gawf coal mine?  The rules say 14.  Would you carry 14 unbundled?  How many would you carry?  What would that mean to your game?  Even with all the titanium, range finders, GPS, and rocket ballz, if you couldn't amass your kit in a bag, would that change the deal?

[Mac Plumart]

It is human nature, plain and simple.  We seek improvements, advantages, and efficiencies...always have...always will.

[David Harshbarger]

Mac, I absolutely agree. My challenge is this:

Take away the bag, what do you do to maximize your game, every other modern advantage available?

(No caddy, no cart...see the fine print.)

[Mac Plumart]

Good question.  I don't know what people would cook up.

[Bob_Huntley]

It's simple, get in the habit of playing in a three or four club event and see your golf improve.

Bob

[David Harshbarger]

It's just a thought puzzle.  What would it mean to you?

  Better yet, go out tomorrow and play with what you can carry in your arms and pockets.  How does that change your experience of golf?  Think of it as a different take on the underlying motives of playing hickories. It's restricted, but it is still contemporary.

[David Harshbarger]

It's simple, get in the habit of playing in a three or four club event and see your golf improve.

Bob

Bob, completely agree.  I've been playing most everything within 130 with a Mashie Niblick with electrical tape grip. My game is better! My baseline is low, but still...

[Jim_Kennedy]

Who could have foretold that the Bussey Automated Caddy Bag(1893) and the Osmond (1896) would have led to the game's demise...  
 


...but I see your point.

edit: The first mention of a caddy in the rules dates from 1773, and the first mention of a caddy(for golf) was of a man named "Andrew Dickson who would become an Edinburgh clubmaker, who caddied for the Duke of York as a boy in 1681 in the Duke's golf match on Leith Links".
And as you can see in this 1790 print, the caddy is already up to 8 in-hand and one on his man's shoulder. 

[Jim Franklin]

Mac, I absolutely agree. My challenge is this:

Take away the bag, what do you do to maximize your game, every other modern advantage available?

(No caddy, no cart...see the fine print.)

Why would you? Humans make things to carry things ALL the time. Why not a bag to carry your clubs?

[Jim_Kennedy]

It's just a thought puzzle.  What would it mean to you?

  Better yet, go out tomorrow and play with what you can carry in your arms and pockets.  How does that change your experience of golf?  Think of it as a different take on the underlying motives of playing hickories. It's restricted, but it is still contemporary.

David,
You've been playing hickory shafted clubs for awhile and I think you mentioned on another thread that you've hit a lot of different shots with each of them. Steel shafts took away the flexibility (not flex) in the way a player could approach a shot with a single club, and so players added more clubs to fill in the 'gaps' created when they made the change to steel. If there was a canary in the gawf coal mine I'd be more inclined to believe it was the change in shaft material, not the bag.

[Kris Shreiner]

The golf bag has helped define the game, its growth, and also assisted in producing the single greatest source of its champions and differencemakers...caddie golf. Sadly, many of the current products are awful abominations that should be recycled into proper bags.

Jim,

Thank you for posting those images! Andrew Dickson...the patron saint of caddie golf...1681. Though there were no doubt caddies prior to that, he is the first named caddie on record to my knowledge. Like Old Tom, Ben Hogan and countless others after him, the caddie path sure produces some worthwhile contributions to the game and society. Carry on!

Cheers, Kris

[Niall C]

It's simple, get in the habit of playing in a three or four club event and see your golf improve.

Bob

Bob

So very true. I had my best game in years a couple of days ago playing with a half set. Brought to mind that of all the medals I played at Silloth, my best score off the medal tees was in the 5 club comp.

Not to intentionally wind up Kris, but a few weeks ago I was wondering when watching Ross Fisher get penalised for slow play after endlessly conferring with his caddy, wouldn't professional golf be a a whole lot better and a whole let quicker if these guys only had bag carriers rather than "advisors".

Niall

[David Harshbarger]

Mac, I absolutely agree. My challenge is this:

Take away the bag, what do you do to maximize your game, every other modern advantage available?

(No caddy, no cart...see the fine print.)

Why would you? Humans make things to carry things ALL the time. Why not a bag to carry your clubs?

Jim,

Of course humans event carrying vessels. Entire ancient cultures are defined by their remnants.  I'm not arguing we shouldn't have bags.  I'm no über-Luddite after all.

What I'm casting around for is how by challenging the ingrained assumptions of golf, we can create different, and possibly more enjoyable experiences of golf.  Take a look at every item you have that is part of your golf kit, and ask yourself what would you do differently if you didn't have it, or didn't have contemporary versions of it?

Take tees.  Replace with none, or piles of sand.  
Limit yourself to as many balls as you can put in your pocket.
Ditch the bag.
Play barefoot, or with slick soled shoes.
Ditch the glove.
Ignore, if you can, on course distance aids.

Jim K. Is correct I have started playing hickories.  When I went back to my regular clubs, it really felt like the clubs were dumbed down blunt instruments. I'll defer to his wisdom on the flex issue, but by comparison, my handful of hickories encourage me to play at the ball in many ways, and that's been a positive change in my experience of golf.  And short of going that route, I would challenge anyone on here to go pack 4 clubs under your arm and play and see if what your experience of the game is, and is it different or better?  Or do as Bob suggests and get into a 3 or 4 club tournament.

[Tim Martin]

Mac, I absolutely agree. My challenge is this:

Take away the bag, what do you do to maximize your game, every other modern advantage available?

(No caddy, no cart...see the fine print.)

Why would you? Humans make things to carry things ALL the time. Why not a bag to carry your clubs?

Jim,

Of course humans event carrying vessels. Entire ancient cultures are defined by their remnants.  I'm not arguing we shouldn't have bags.  I'm no über-Luddite after all.

What I'm casting around for is how by challenging the ingrained assumptions of golf, we can create different, and possibly more enjoyable experiences of golf.  Take a look at every item you have that is part of your golf kit, and ask yourself what would you do differently if you didn't have it, or didn't have contemporary versions of it?

Take tees.  Replace with none, or piles of sand.  
Limit yourself to as many balls as you can put in your pocket.
Ditch the bag.
Play barefoot, or with slick soled shoes.
Ditch the glove.
Ignore, if you can, on course distance aids.

Jim K. Is correct I have started playing hickories.  When I went back to my regular clubs, it really felt like the clubs were dumbed down blunt instruments. I'll defer to his wisdom on the flex issue, but by comparison, my handful of hickories encourage me to play at the ball in many ways, and that's been a positive change in my experience of golf.  And short of going that route, I would challenge anyone on here to go pack 4 clubs under your arm and play and see if what your experience of the game is, and is it different or better?  Or do as Bob suggests and get into a 3 or 4 club tournament.

If someone is really happy with their current experience or version of golf what is the compulsion to constantly change it. If you like hickories that is great. I love the game as I know it and have moved along with many of the technological advances that have been developed over the last 30 years. As far as not using a bag I liken that idea to going to Dairy Queen and having them put the ice cream in your hand instead of a cone. Although it may provide a different experience I can`t imagine it`s more suitable or more fun. I really think you are reaching here David but you have to do what makes you happy. Next time you play tee it up on pine cone, carry your clubs in a heap,play barefoot with vasoline on the bottoms of your feet,and wear a blindfold and a toga. If it enhances the experience please let me know.    

[David Harshbarger]

Tim,

Maybe I've been reading too much of Melvyn's writings, who knows?  I know you love the game, there's no doubt about that.  Playing without a bag is definitely not on par with ice cream in hand. Have you played that Raynor masterpiece of yours with vintage clubs?  Ouimet beat Vardon and Ray with 8 clubs, you know.  All I'm suggesting is you might be surprised how golf is different, and sometimes better, when you go forward by subtraction, not just addition.

Dave

The toga idea may have legs.  It's pretty close to a kilt....

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,
That's what I was getting at, that hickory shafted clubs allowed the player more freedom to play the ball in more different ways than a modern steel shafted club will allow. Therefore, players using hickory don't need as many clubs as modern golfers need today.


 

[Tim Martin]

Tim,

Maybe I've been reading too much of Melvyn's writings, who knows?  I know you love the game, there's no doubt about that.  Playing without a bag is definitely not on par with ice cream in hand. Have you played that Raynor masterpiece of yours with vintage clubs?  Ouimet beat Vardon and Ray with 8 clubs, you know.  All I'm suggesting is you might be surprised how golf is different, and sometimes better, when you go forward by subtraction, not just addition.

Dave

The toga idea may have legs.  It's pretty close to a kilt....

David-I am only giving you a hard time. I know how much you also love the game which was quite evident from our two rounds together. I have never played with hickories. If you do go with the toga I hope you can find something in a tartan print.

[Dave Falkner]

Tim and Dave

If either of you guys plays in a toga or kilt or any sort of fabric contraption that doesnt fully enclose your "situations"  pleae give me ample notice so that I may jab my eyes out before I have a chance of seeing it

[David Harshbarger]

Tim,

Maybe I've been reading too much of Melvyn's writings, who knows?  I know you love the game, there's no doubt about that.  Playing without a bag is definitely not on par with ice cream in hand. Have you played that Raynor masterpiece of yours with vintage clubs?  Ouimet beat Vardon and Ray with 8 clubs, you know.  All I'm suggesting is you might be surprised how golf is different, and sometimes better, when you go forward by subtraction, not just addition.

Dave

The toga idea may have legs.  It's pretty close to a kilt....

David-I am only giving you a hard time. I know how much you also love the game which was quite evident from our two rounds together. I have never played with hickories. If you do go with the toga I hope you can find something in a tartan print.

Tim,  
I appreciate that and I am definitely looking forward to the next time we can tee it up together.

You, of all people, as the heir to such a classic golden era course owe it to yourself to play Yale at least once with hickories.  You think the Pits, or number 8, are fearsome now?  See how you feel after finding yourself looking 30 feet up from the sand with nothing but a bounce-less Niblick in your hands.  Yeesh!

My sister says I can legitimately claim at least one clan, and given my WV roots, there are undoubtedly other Scot's blood in me from all those exiles and indentured servants that took refuge in those hills no sane person would enter if they could avoid it.

[David_Tepper]

"That's what I was getting at, that hickory shafted clubs allowed the player more freedom to play the ball in more different ways than a modern steel shafted club will allow. Therefore, players using hickory don't need as many clubs as modern golfers need today."

Jim Kennedy -

I would question the notion that hickory shafts, in and of themselves, provide more "freedom to play in more different ways" than a steel shaft. My guess is guys like Seve and Trevino might question that notion as well.

My guess is the shape of the clubhead has a bigger impact on the "freedom to play the ball in more different ways" than whether the shaft is hcikory, steel or graphite.

P.S. The need to carry at least one more club can be attributed to Sarazen's invention of the sand wedge.

DT         

[Garland Bayley]

"That's what I was getting at, that hickory shafted clubs allowed the player more freedom to play the ball in more different ways than a modern steel shafted club will allow. Therefore, players using hickory don't need as many clubs as modern golfers need today."

Jim Kennedy -

I would question the notion that hickory shafts, in and of themselves, provide more "freedom to play in more different ways" than a steel shaft. My guess is guys like Seve and Trevino might question that notion as well.

My guess is the shape of the clubhead has a bigger impact on the "freedom to play the ball in more different ways" than whether the shaft is hcikory, steel or graphite.

P.S. The need to carry at least one more club can be attributed to Sarazen's invention of the sand wedge.

DT         

"Sand wedge? I don't need no stinking stand wedge." Seve

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,
This paragraph comes from the historical rules of golf, and I think it supports my contention:

The flexibility of approach to shot making from hickories was stifled by steel-shafted clubs, so players chose to carry a large number of them of them in order to re-create the strokes required on the course.  This prompted the USGA into limiting the number of clubs carried to 14 on 1 Jan 1938; the R&A followed suit 1 May, 1939.

And in a 1909 issue of the British Golf Illustrated magazine, it was reported that:

The shafts of modern clubs are thicker and not so tapered and they are in consequence much stiffer than the old playclubs. The suppleness or give in the shafts occurred 3-4 inches above the whipping in the old clubs, but in the modern clubs, if the shaft has any give at all it is much farther up and, as a rule, is more evenly distributed throughout the shaft. The old clubs were made for the swinging blow whereas the modern ones are adapted more for hitting and suppleness has therefore given way to steeliness.

I don't discount clubheads and balls, but the move away from supple hickory for the swinger to more steeliness for the hitter  seems to have created a need for more clubs to be added.

[Carl Johnson]

How 'bout the http://www.themackenziegolfbagcompany.com/ [reportedly] started by Peter Jacobsen.  Will those $800 or so walker bags bring the game of Gawf back?

[David_Tepper]

Jim Kennedy -

I stand corrected!

DT

[David Harshbarger]

Jim,

That's great stuff.  The rationale about the club limit goes directly to the topic.

The 1909 article speaks to an area I don't know much about, the transition from the Gutta Percha to the Haskell/rubber core ball.  Most of the hickories I have are stiff, not whippy.  I still use my contemporary swing for the most part, and play variations in trajectory.  I think I'm more apt to play a hitting stroke than a swinging stroke, as that old timey swinging stoke had a lot of body sway in it, I think.

A local pro told me that his teacher who straddled the transition from hickory to steel had to relearn how to teach the game.  He said that it wasn't until Ben Hogan that someone distilled the swing mechanics needed for the new clubs.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()