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Tim_Cronin

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2012, 12:56:13 PM »
Jack said the greens are wild because the course is so short (6,800 something tipped out). My problem is with the six-hour rounds these guys inflicted on people yesterday. Yes, the wind blew and the greens are slopy and there are rides needed from greens to some tees, but really, while we're young!
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Kyle Henderson

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2012, 11:53:17 PM »
On television, those greens look like they'd be a blast. That does not mean they are great for a medal play professional event, but for the remaining 99.9% of the time I suspect critics might need to abandon the scorecard mentality and try match play to see what degree of enjoyment those surfaces can elicit.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2012, 12:17:26 AM »
No I do not think we would applaud these greens if done by the above. They do not make sense based n the guys who have played the course. i have played a number of Fazio courses where the undulations have no rhyme or reason. They go from good to dumb in a hurry like by the 3rd hole.  I will struggle with how a course with that routing could get 2 major events this young.

Howard Riefs

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2012, 12:31:04 AM »
I will struggle with how a course with that routing could get 2 major events this young.

It's a simple answer: $$$$

KitchenAid, which is owned by Benton Harbor-based Whirlpool. "is the reason why the top senior players and the networks are descending upon the area. The company has signed on as the presenting sponsor of the Senior PGA from 2011-2014. The package includes not only a tournament this year, but another Senior PGA at Harbor Shores in 2014. KitchenAid's Deb O'Connor, director for global partnerships, declined to reveal the cost of the sponsorship, but industry sources peg the fee in the $2 million to $3 million range."

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20120522/NEWS07/120529914?template=mobile

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

JC Jones

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2012, 06:42:30 AM »
No I do not think we would applaud these greens if done by the above. They do not make sense based n the guys who have played the course. i have played a number of Fazio courses where the undulations have no rhyme or reason. They go from good to dumb in a hurry like by the 3rd hole.  I will struggle with how a course with that routing could get 2 major events this young.

Which guys who have played the course?  The people on this site who've played the course seem to like them.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Andy Troeger

Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2012, 08:32:01 AM »
I think the pros have at least one valid complaint regarding the greens. Most of them have lots of these pretty significant slopes/ridges that divide the greens into small sections. If you're trying to hit a ball to the correct level, you literally have to hit the perfect shot because otherwise the ball is going to take other slopes and end up somewhere else. Contrast that with most classic era greens, which might have had 1-2 significant slopes in a green that divide it in half or perhaps into thirds. Trying to hit to a section of those greens creates a challenge, but its not impossible if the correct shot is hit. I enjoy the concept of dividing greens into "areas" where its obviously beneficial to be on the correct level for a makeable putt, but I think Harbor Shores takes that concept a little too far. Some of this can be mitigated by pin selection, however. If they put the pins in lower areas, then the game becomes a little different.

One difference between these greens and those built by C&C/Doak, etc. that I've noticed is that most of the time those other designers save their most severe greens for holes where most players come in with a short iron. C&C especially tend to do this, such as the Warren Course at ND where the crazy greens at #4/16 come on holes where players should approach with a wedge/9-iron. I think Tom D. has admitted that he occasionally throws in a crazy green at the end of a long hole, but there's usually still some level of balance there or a lack of surrounding penal hazards around the green. Harbor Shores, and other recent Nicklaus efforts, are pretty relentless.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2012, 11:36:11 AM »
Wild greens are only ok if your name is Doak, Coore or Hanse.  Otherwise, they suck.

To me, wild greens and carts is a perfect combination.  Hopefully I'll see it thIs summer.

JC,

Carts are good by me, no issue there.

I don't agree with the part about wild greens.  From what I've seen there is some nouveau trend to have width and highly contoured greens (PR words are fun, aren't they!). 

I was fortunate to play Kingsley Club and Arcadia Bluffs (I like it better than most) over a long weekend last year.  I may get flamed for saying this because I don't have a great explanation, but the greens at Kingsley and the greens at Arcadia are of completely different quality even though, generally, both are highly contoured putting surfaces with varied shaping.  I have struggled working out why, but certain courses have wild greens (AB and Huntsman Springs are two examples) that feel more about fitting with the trend than actually being good/clever/interesting design. 

I have similarly seen courses where width adds nothing to the design.  The great part about width is that it allows varied angles of approach into a green -- when there is little difference between one side of the fairway and the other the width becomes a waste; this is where the argument width = easy fits.  I have said before that penalty is inherent in strategic design, but when there is no penalty (or logically a reward) for being on one side of the fairway over the other, it is not strategic.

Back to the original point, I have not played or seen Harbor Shores, but I do think there are wild greens that may not be great (I wouldn't say the greens at Arcadia or Huntsman suck).

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2012, 11:45:29 AM »
Here's a thread from 2010 with photos of the course:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44963.0.html

Here's what I wrote then about the course:

"Played Harbor Shores yesterday on a fairly blustery day.  In short, I liked the holes individually but did not like the course (due to the routing and resulting long drives between sections of the course, as well as the ominous presence of the development that will one day surround the property).  Most likely due to the land available and the environmental restrictions, the course plays as a series of three or four hole loops, without much flow between the various segments. 

A couple of followup points on matters mentioned above:

1.  Despite using 15 minute tee time increments, the pace is abysmal.  We ended up catching the group in front of us on the third hole, who in turn were waiting on the group in front of them.  Three groups backed up on a par 4 three holes into a round means there is a problem of some kind.

2.  Its a great tee ball course.  The fairways are very wide and the trouble off of the tee is evident (with the exception of the end of the fairway on the sixth).  Even in a 2 to 3 club wind I managed to hit all but one of the fairways.

3.  The green contours rival any set of greens I've seen that are considered undulating.  It was a ton of fun to imagine playing approach shots to the different sections of the greens, and to think about the ridiculous putts you might have if you missed the right quadrant (of which I had a few).

4.  The fairways and runup areas played extremely fast.  There are a couple of holes where the contours around the greens allow for creative running approaches, including the 3rd, 5th, 9th, 14th and 16th holes.

5.  The stretch from 7 to 9 (the closest property to the lake) has some dramatic elevation changes and is by far the most eye-catching section of the course.  I think the Nicklaus team did a good job of making the remaining holes captivating enough for the player not to feel like the rest of the course is overshadowed by these holes.

6.  Not sure how I feel about 7 as a golf hole.  With a stiff breeze coming in off of the lake, both the drive and approach will be severely challenging shots with little room for error.  It is possible to drive to the right of the fairway bunkers, but I would not suggest taking this approach with a headwind.  By my judge the up hill approach plays two to three clubs longer than the actual yardage.  This means you're hitting a longer iron over a cavernous bunker into a semi-blind green that is not nearly deep enough to hold anything but a high shot.  The penalty for going long is deep scruff or, if too long, playing off of the parking lot or beach on the lake (from the green one could pick out 5 or 6 balls that had carried a little too far)."
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

JC Jones

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2012, 01:29:13 PM »
Mark,

I agree with you completely that the greens at Kingsley are vastly superior to the greens at Arcadia.  I think a large part of it isn't the greens by themselves, I think it is the contrived nature of Arcadia Bluffs and the manner in which the greens fit within that concept.  I actually think the greens are one of the few redeeming aspects of Arcadia despite me feeling they aren't as good as Kingsley. 

In my opinion, what makes Kingsley's greens so spectacular is that they fit in completely with the land (only 1 or 2 are actually anything much other than what was there naturally when Mike routed the course.  Therefore, the greens are just another part of the natural aspect of Kingsley club.  Whereas the greens at Arcadia are completely manufactured.  That being said, I'll take manufactured wild greens because I enjoy wild for the sake of wild, than flat greens. 

One other thing to keep in mind is that when comparing Kingsley and Arcadia you are also, in my opinion, comparing a natural straight haired brunette with a slender yet slightly curved body and stunning eyes with one of those plasticized, over tanned and tatooed women from the Jersey Shore.  Sure I wouldn't mind a night with the latter, but there is no comparison with the grace of the former.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

ward peyronnin

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2012, 03:24:36 PM »
Did anybody just see the replay of the course opening where Nicklaus, on the 10th, holed a 60 foot triple hump riding breaker after the worlds most exposed whiner, Johnny Miller was standing over the putt bitching?

Priceless
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Sean_A

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2012, 04:12:03 PM »
The question I have concerning the greens is are they hard to putt and approach given the wind and ground conditions?  I have only seen one course where I thought this was an issue and I would say there was a problem with the design.  Something has to give when undulations, firmness, wind and green speed combine to create unruly animals.  Talk to me.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Terry Lavin

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2012, 08:37:09 PM »
I don't care if I ever play this course based on the wacky routing, but it looks okay on television for what that's worth. My main observation is that the nutty greens provide a defense to very good players. This will surely piss them off, because they won't like the "putts per round" stat. Sniff, sniff. If you have a course and you want pro tournament play, you have to defend the course and it looks like they took the easiest path at Harbor Shores.

Last thought: Harbor Shores will never be one half the course that its neighbor, Point O' Woods. Not even close.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ken Fry

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2012, 08:43:18 PM »

Last thought: Harbor Shores will never be one half the course that its neighbor, Point O' Woods. Not even close.


Terry,

I bit harsh for a course you haven't seen.

When was the last time you visited Point?

Ken

Chris_Hufnagel

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2012, 08:47:16 PM »
Mark,

I agree with you completely that the greens at Kingsley are vastly superior to the greens at Arcadia.  I think a large part of it isn't the greens by themselves, I think it is the contrived nature of Arcadia Bluffs and the manner in which the greens fit within that concept.  I actually think the greens are one of the few redeeming aspects of Arcadia despite me feeling they aren't as good as Kingsley.  

In my opinion, what makes Kingsley's greens so spectacular is that they fit in completely with the land (only 1 or 2 are actually anything much other than what was there naturally when Mike routed the course.  Therefore, the greens are just another part of the natural aspect of Kingsley club.  Whereas the greens at Arcadia are completely manufactured.  That being said, I'll take manufactured wild greens because I enjoy wild for the sake of wild, than flat greens.  

One other thing to keep in mind is that when comparing Kingsley and Arcadia you are also, in my opinion, comparing a natural straight haired brunette with a slender yet slightly curved body and stunning eyes with one of those plasticized, over tanned and tatooed women from the Jersey Shore.  Sure I wouldn't mind a night with the latter, but there is no comparison with the grace of the former.

I love that last paragraph...can I use that some time?

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2012, 08:47:38 PM »
Ken,

I'm there every year. I respect Whirlpool for its corporate citizen role in Harbor Shores but it has had a negligible effect on the local economy and a harsh effect on the Point. I don't mind riding but I avoid cartball tracks. HS is surely that!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Ken Fry

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2012, 08:57:25 PM »
Ken,

I'm there every year. I respect Whirlpool for its corporate citizen role in Harbor Shores but it has had a negligible effect on the local economy and a harsh effect on the Point. I don't mind riding but I avoid cartball tracks. HS is surely that!


Terry,

From the first time I played Harbor Shores, I bemoaned the necessity of a cart.  That said, what's there now is light years away from what once was.  IS HS a perfect course?  Far from it but it's a darn fun course to get around on.  I'll also disagree with the impact of the project.  The crowds there this week and the buzz surrounding the area is great to see.  I believe the scale of the impact will be felt more so after this week.

I'm sure Harbor Shores has had an effect on the Point but I have to ask.  Who in the world approved the changes to the course, most notably #2 green complex and #9?

Ken

Brad Tufts

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2012, 09:05:24 PM »
Guys!  Please don't give opinions on a course you haven't played.  We've all done it once or twice, and we should learn not to speculate based on hearsay or tv coverage.

Yes, the routing is disjointed, but I thought the course itself was pretty good, even with the wild greens.  There were many times where I felt, even on a first play, that the slopes could be identified and used to help bounce an approach to a pin location.

Do we have examples of where the slopes make no sense?  Yes, you could create pins that ignore the slopes (like you could on any green anywhere) but you would hope that the tournament committee would be smart-ish about it

#7 is definitely a bit of a head scratcher, but ultimately it's just a par 4.5.  Can't say I've ever played a longer or more difficult 415-yard hole.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Carl Nichols

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2012, 04:33:42 PM »
It's much more interesting on TV than Colonial, which IMHO is a snoozefest on TV.  (haven't played either course)

JC Jones

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Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2012, 05:20:42 PM »
Mark,

I agree with you completely that the greens at Kingsley are vastly superior to the greens at Arcadia.  I think a large part of it isn't the greens by themselves, I think it is the contrived nature of Arcadia Bluffs and the manner in which the greens fit within that concept.  I actually think the greens are one of the few redeeming aspects of Arcadia despite me feeling they aren't as good as Kingsley.  

In my opinion, what makes Kingsley's greens so spectacular is that they fit in completely with the land (only 1 or 2 are actually anything much other than what was there naturally when Mike routed the course.  Therefore, the greens are just another part of the natural aspect of Kingsley club.  Whereas the greens at Arcadia are completely manufactured.  That being said, I'll take manufactured wild greens because I enjoy wild for the sake of wild, than flat greens.  

One other thing to keep in mind is that when comparing Kingsley and Arcadia you are also, in my opinion, comparing a natural straight haired brunette with a slender yet slightly curved body and stunning eyes with one of those plasticized, over tanned and tatooed women from the Jersey Shore.  Sure I wouldn't mind a night with the latter, but there is no comparison with the grace of the former.

I love that last paragraph...can I use that some time?

But of course!
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2012, 09:32:32 PM »
Ward, the putt Jack made that you described was far more than sixty feet, at least 100' long. He walked over and putted it because Johnny was about to pull out his lob wedge and pitch the ball.

Terry, I played HS in the morning and the Point in the afternoon two weeks ago. The greens at the Point were in pathetic condition, esp. for that course where my previous visits had revealed nothing but pristeen conditions. The comparison between the two courses was night and day, and on this occasion the darkness was in Benton Harbor and not in St. Joe's. The greens at Harbor Shores were extremely firm, understandable in light of the upcoming event. But they were quick and extremely true. Hard to read the long ones? Absolutely. But if we didn't want to have difficult putts, Jack would undoubtedly argue that we have a fairly simple solution -- hit it closer to the hole!

I've played HS on three separate occasions now, and I found it on each occasion to be a blast. I'd go back there any time, and am in for George's road trip later this season.

It isn't long, and if the greens were not severe, the guys with their names on their bags would be raining 62s all over the scoreboard. But just as is the case with places like the River Course at Kohler, or Lost Dunes down the street, there are places at HS that you just cannot hit your approach shot. You might well be better off missing the green left and being 40' from the pin, than hitting the green and having a 25 footer. But didn't Tom Doak ask us during the inaugaral Mashie about why it was that a golfer was always entitled to putt his ball at the hole if he was on the green? I think it was during his discussion of the green on #4, that eminently reachable par-5 that requires a player to get his ball on the green in the right position. . . or else.

Yes, it isn't walkable (they apparently used shuttles for several of the gaps during the Senior event), and that's anathema to many on this Board. So be it. There are some very cool holes, requiring challenging but playable shots, even for a chop like me. I'd certainly like them to cut the damn rough -- our recent round was long because we spent so much time trying to find balls 10 yards off the fairway, but they were playing a Senior major two weeks after our visit. Besides, the rough was even deeper at Point O Woods down the street, and they were only hosting a Better Ball! Why has 4" rough become the norm around here? Hacking balls back into the fairway can't be much fun for the members at Olympia Fields or Butterfield -- but that's exactly what we did on Saturday and today. And again, don't tell me to hit it in the fairway (if I friggin could, I certainly would, but I stink), or "that's why they call it rough, not easy." The game is far more interesting if you're trying to figure out if this lie will jump, come out soft, or whether it's going to turn the club in my hands enough to cause yet another duck hook. Chopping out with wedges is not fun.

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2012, 10:44:58 PM »
Did anybody just see the replay of the course opening where Nicklaus, on the 10th, holed a 60 foot triple hump riding breaker after the worlds most exposed whiner, Johnny Miller was standing over the putt bitching?

Priceless

102-feet to be precise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yzbkABM4Bc
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2012, 09:19:30 PM »
I was able to play Harbor Shores today, I had been looking forward to playing it since reading this thread and watching a bit of the Senior PGA...

Overall I thought the course was excellent, really fun but rather challenging.  I think this thread hits on it, but the main defense of the course is the greens.  They were incredibly undulated but at no point did I not think good shots were punished.  You definitely needed to be on the proper tier to have a good chance at holing the putt.

I thought the stretch of 7-12 was excellent, some of the best holes I've played. 

Two complaints though, one: the routing is rather bizarre...I'm not sure they could have done much better since it was on an old landfill and it's very marshy, but it almost feels like 3 or 4 separate courses with only 3 to 4 holes each..the walk would be incredibly difficult.  And two: I thought the last few holes 14-18 turned into a difficult slog...each hole was really tough with water on each one.

Overall, I'd highly recommend the course.  The green sites are really interesting, really challenging and the course overall is quite fun to play.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2012, 12:34:29 AM »
Oftentimes when I took good players to Lost Dunes they complained of unfair greens but myself and other regular players learned to enjoy the challenge.

I wonder if Harbor Shores greens are another remnant of the Nicklaus team's working with Mr. Doak at Sebonick? Have they adopted this feature as a more regular template?

Ward:

The greens at Lost Dunes were shaped by a young man who worked for Landscapes Unlimited at the time, Jerame Miller.  It was the first chance he'd had to build some wild greens and he really ran with my sketches for them ... I had to tone him down on several.

Since then, Jerame has wound up as a design associate and shaper for Jack Nicklaus.  I am pretty sure he is the one who built all the greens at Harbor Shores, although of course Jack signed off on each of them.  He is probably their go-to guy for wild greens now, even though he had no role at Sebonack -- in fact, while we were building Sebonack, Jerame was out at Stone Eagle running that job for the golf course contractor [but not shaping the greens].

So, really the difference between Lost Dunes and Harbor Shores is which architect was designing and editing the greens.  I think I have a different eye for that stuff than Jack does.  Some people may hate them both, because both sets of greens are severe, and some people just don't like that ... but then, I've had ample confirmation over the years that lots of you have no idea what you're talking about.

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2012, 10:50:57 AM »
I just read through this thread and it sounds like the green complexes at Harbor Shores are the midwest version of Dove Mountain in Tucson.

Remember how much the pros dislike the greens there? http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/jason.scott/2012/02/22/ritz-carlton-dove-mountain-golf

I think it is fine to have courses with unique greens because it challenges the pros and makes it fun for the everyday players.

Which other courses can be add to the category, "greens disliked by pros"?

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Harbor Shores Info/Opinions
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2012, 12:30:38 PM »
I just read through this thread and it sounds like the green complexes at Harbor Shores are the midwest version of Dove Mountain in Tucson.

Remember how much the pros dislike the greens there? http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/jason.scott/2012/02/22/ritz-carlton-dove-mountain-golf

I think it is fine to have courses with unique greens because it challenges the pros and makes it fun for the everyday players.

Which other courses can be add to the category, "greens disliked by pros"?

I have thought the same things, Scott, as someone who has played Dove Mtn a few times and walked it during the tournament a few times as well. Photos looks really similar, a mixture of some extreme slopes, some severe edges, tiers, and then humps and bumps that create other issues.

I love the greens at Dove Mtn, but I'm not playing for money and I'm sure not playing them at the speed or to the same placements that the pros play!

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