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Steve_ Shaffer

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« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 10:10:00 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matthew Petersen

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Finally...

http://www.camelbackinn.com/Camelback-Golf-Club-43.html


Course scheduled to reopen October 2013.

Anything is better than what's currently there, but the computer model doesn't look all that inspiring. Hard to tell from those graphics, though.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Just saw an ad  for  a "Fling & Swing Golf  Package" mentioning the course's  "$9 Million overhaul."
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matthew Petersen

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I played Camelback's other course, the Padre, shortly before Christmas. We'd had a good bit of rain recently and that water had swept much of the dirt and mulch from the construction site down onto the Padre. At that point, they'd essentially leveled Indian Bend, but not started any new earthmoving, on any visible holes at least. Lots of shaping to be done, if the computerized tour is to be believed.

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Definitely looks like a total redo, not a renovation.  What was there was a 70's style course that wasn't really awful, but not terribly interesting either.  As a resort course, it had long been overshadowed by the newer/flashier foothills courses and the turf was pretty tired.  The property is a long skinny tract in the Indian Bend wash that basically supports an out and back routing.

I believe it may be the first work Dr. Hurdzan had done in Arizona?

Matthew, had you ever played the Padre Course before the Art Hills redo?


Matthew Petersen

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As far as I can tell, you are correct that this is the first Hurdzan work in the state ... at first I thought that couldn't be, but perhaps I was just assuming because Dana Fry played a bit for the University of Arizona.

Yes, it's far more than a renovation, they've stripped everything, including quite a few trees. Obviously the corridor of the course is the same (those expensive houses aren't going anywhere) but the flow of the holes and the holes themselves will be entirely different, it seems.

I never did play Padre until just a few years back. It was just a couple of days ago I was looking at old aerial images of the place via Google Earth and saw how drastic that work was--based on comments I'd heard, my impression had always been that it was mostly aesthetic, but as renovations go it looks to have been pretty significant. It's not a great course now, but as options for non-desert golf go, I enjoyed it well enough.

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Coinciding with the profile and discussion of Desert Forest, it should be noted that the Padre course was originally a Red Lawrence design and while the course itself wasn't remarkable, it had a set of wonderful push up greens that I was sad to see completely razed. 

I really liked the style and look of the Lawrence bunkering, not sure how to describe it but it looks like the elevated green/surround was created then the bunkers scooped out with a giant spoon.   You can see this style evident in some of the pics in the Desert Forest profile.

When I first moved to Arizona in the late 70's,  Camelback and McCormick Ranch were THE upscale daily fee courses in town.  The luster went off once the Troons and such came along but I always enjoyed the occasional visit to the old school flavor of the Padre.  I guess they felt the pressure to modernize but I don't care at all for the Padre redo.






Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is it Hurdzan or is it Fry? Last I read, they had split, with Hurdzan and son going one way and Fry and another associate the other.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
I understand that Fry/Straka is doing the work on Indian Bend. In particular, Straka,
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fry/Straka to redo Camelback GC Indian Bend,Scottsdale
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 08:30:36 PM »
Here is a brief review of the Padre Course by Art Hills:

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/travel-articles/the-padre-course-at-camelback-golf-club-in-scottsdale-is-more-than-a-walk-in-the-park/

I have not played this course but did play the Red Lawrence original many years ago.  I have no recollection of that course.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Straka was prime for Hurdzan Fry on my two home courses at Bond Head  north of Toronto.  I think each courses turned out well, being both challenging and interesting and different from each other, albeit different from many courses.  I'd be surprised if this course turned out to be less than architecturally interesting unless the design brief from the owners handcuffs the design.

 

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Fry/Straka redo Camelback GC Indian Bend,Scottsdale/2013 new course!
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2013, 10:40:49 AM »
Add Indian Bend to the new course list for 2013!
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Now scheduled to open on November 1  !!!
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just saw an ad  for  a "Fling & Swing Golf  Package" mentioning the course's  "$9 Million overhaul."

'Fling & Swing' is that playing away from home in more than one way ;D

Jon

Steve_ Shaffer

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Now scheduled to open on November 19 @ $159.   I think I'll wait until next summer.  ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason Straka was the lead designer. The work began with Hurdzan-Fry, then Jason and Dana broke away and the job seemed to follow them. When we interviewed for this work back in 2007-08 the short list was us, Hurdzan-Fry and Schmidt-Curley. It was a hard one to lose out on as my mentor Arthur Jack Snyder had created the Indian Bend for Marriott back in the early 1970s…at a cost of $400,000…and in an impossible location…the bottom of the Indian Bend Wash. (Backstory: Roger maxwell, then Director of Golf for Marriott, said in the opening ceremony: "Jack, you have created a wonderful layout for us…and Marriott gave you both an impossible piece of land and an equally impossible budget…the next great site in the Marriott Family will be yours as our appreciation for what you have accomplished here…" That never materialized. Jack died in 2005 thinking positively that I might get to carry out work to make good on Roger's comments. BTW, Roger gave Jack an original 1st Edition of Golf Architecture in America, still cherished here in our library.)

At the time (1970s), the Army Corps of Engineers had never really encountered a golf development in a major drainage basin, at least not in the desert with our flash floods. Jack created an interesting course that was very links-ish for the time. Unfortunately, Marriott demanded (Jack's words) 1000s of trees and, guess what, they all grew up!

From about 1995 to 2010 the course went wayyyy downhill. It was a shame to see it fall apart — literally. But, the plans to rebuild were ambitious and set, even though delayed by the economy and other factors.

I am very interested to see how the native grass plantings do in this area. Phoenix has never seen positive results on plantings other than native, drought tolerant shrubs and cacti. Watering creates too-dense areas of grass…and reducing water creates a fire hazard, or dead native grass. One project that looked great was Seville, east of Phoenix (Gary Panks). But today I hear reports that much of the native grass plantings have given way to managed turf or decomposed granite with true native plants — not grasses. I hope Marriott is successful as it will give us another option here in the desert.

One of the drivers of this work is (was) the planned Ritz Carlton Resort that Marriott will have a stake in. This new resort will (might) be built a mile east of the courses. It is approved, but still not started. Ultimately the two 18-hole courses at Camelback Inn (which are located away from the resort itself by 2 miles) will serve the Marriott Camelback Inn and area resorts with a tee time agreement. They also have several hundred non-equity members plus timeshare and other play privileges.

From what I can see the work has come out well. The environmental permitting was handled by a close associate who just recently told me that despite some rain and washouts during construction, it all went very well. She also reported that this time around (she was not even born when the course was originally built!) the approvals were much easier based on Jack's ground-breaking work in the 1970s. What Jack accomplished in the 1970s was to prove that golf could coexist with flood control. The course was continually held up as an example of positive reclamation — putting recreation (golf) in flood plains where it would stabilize soils and still serve as a floodway.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 12:22:48 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

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I got a link to photos from Jason, which is provide for those interested in seeing how the finish look is coming along:

https://frystraka.box.com/s/c3wy7tkmc7mthmupety4
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 02:19:11 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Matthew Petersen

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Interestin stuff, Forrest. Thanks for the insight.

It's too bad AJS never got the chance to go back, or that you would have won this opportunity in his stead, but it's great that they committed to fixing the sadly broken Indian Bend course. The photos look great. I hope to get out there before too long.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Played out there last week and, overall, enjoyed it.

Will try to get some pictures and more thoughts up later.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Cart paths are too close to high end houses, new plants are attracting rodents and coyotes...

http://www.azcentral.com/community/scottsdale/articles/20131222paradise-valley-golf-course-remodel.html?nclick_check=1
« Last Edit: December 27, 2013, 01:26:24 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Guess I never got around to posting my thoughts on thoughts on this place.

In relation to the article above, on a back nine hole (14 maybe?), while we were searching the brush for a ball, one of the residents in an adjacent home poked her head over her fence and warned us about the perils in the long grass--they'd seen snakes, rats, and coyotes, according to her.

It makes sense. One of my main criticisms of the course as it played that day was that the tall grass was far too thick. The fairways are wide, but any ball even a foot off would find this thick tall grass that allowed virtually no chance of finding your ball. My suspicion/hope was that they were trying to grow it in thick to start and would then work to manage it back from there, but who knows.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
One of my main criticisms of the course as it played that day was that the tall grass was far too thick. The fairways are wide, but any ball even a foot off would find this thick tall grass that allowed virtually no chance of finding your ball. My suspicion/hope was that they were trying to grow it in thick to start and would then work to manage it back from there, but who knows.

This is true of just about every new course, and we've discussed the reasons here many times before.  The problem is just that during the grow-in, everybody is focused on getting the fairways and greens playable -- by adding water and fertilizer -- but nobody is focused on the roughs until opening day, when people start complaining about lost balls.