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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
(very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« on: June 18, 2012, 06:26:27 PM »
I'm sorry but I just can't stand it any longer.  I am not a grammarian but I do try to speak as though I finished third grade.  There are a lot of things I can stomach.  I can hold my tongue when someone says, "He played better than ME."  I don't mind if someone says, "I'll TAKE my clubs with me instead of BRING, but c'mon can't someone just send out the following memo, "Hey guys you didn't play good, you played WELL!!!"
Maybe we should declare good an adverb and let it go.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 06:29:42 PM »
One of the beauties of taking a cart is that the cover helps prevent sun stroke. How long have you carried your bag?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 06:35:51 PM »
Forgive me for I graduate at South Dakota Tech and now I is a engineer.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 06:48:22 PM »
Tommy,

I am English. I despair of the rape of our language by our broadcasters, politicians, and media people who clearly have little understanding of the provenance of our language and its pronunciation. Even our most respected dictionaries are now reflecting illiterate English because they have have chosen to reflect current English usage rather than literate English. Adverbs, used correctly, are fine, as are all parts of English grammar. Unfortunately, very few British people have even an O-level in Latin or Greek. How are we meant to understand the construction of our language if we have been denied our linguistic heritage? Thankfully, I had a decent classical education, but I am now mid 60s and few since my time have had such a luxury.

It's time we played golf together.

Very best wishes,

Mark.

TEPaul

Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 07:15:20 PM »
Mark:

"The British and the Americans, two peoples separated by a common language."
Winston Churchill


Personally, Mark, I've been around the world enough to know that many to most Americans really don't care much about what other peoples think of them or even say about them. Their natural and apparently genuine reaction seems to be----so what, we have the power and we have the money and furthermore most of ya'll owes us bigtime because we are the ones who defended you in your darkest days. To some of us there is a certain psychological freedom that comes with our inherent lack of defensiveness that way.

Personally I think it is basically comical and shallow but I guess that is just who we are----we think we are the "can do" people, or at least we used to think that. ;)

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 07:40:06 PM »
Mark,

I am one of those unfortunates of whom you write; Latin, Greek, and indeed the teaching of English grammar had long fallen out of favour by the time I began my school career in the mid sixties. I would hope however, that I have picked up along the way a reasonable grasp of good written English, more by osmosis than formal training. When committing words to paper or screen I endeavour to ensure that my use of language is good, and that my meaning is clear. Even my emails and text messages I take care to construct and punctuate correctly.

My spoken English though, can be terrible! I've even been known to absent-mindedly split an infinitive! ;)

Conversational English is for most people, very different from written English. I can excuse lapses made by those speaking off the cuff that would clunk discordantly if read from the page. Tommy's examples would for me fall into this category.

What I cannot excuse however, is poor English from journalists on the TV or radio who are clearly reading from a script that they themselves have written. This is just plain sloppy and unprofessional.

My other pet hate is the apparent confusion people often have for the meanings of the words 'lend' and 'borrow'.

"Borrow us a fiver, will you mate?"  :o

Even worse, beginning a sentence "So..."

« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 12:49:46 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 07:46:22 PM »
I'm sorry but I just can't stand it any longer.  I am not a grammarian but I do try to speak as though I finished third grade.  There are a lot of things I can stomach.  I can hold my tongue when someone says, "He played better than ME."  I don't mind if someone says, "I'll TAKE my clubs with me instead of BRING, but c'mon can't someone just send out the following memo, "Hey guys you didn't play good, you played WELL!!!"
Maybe we should declare good an adverb and let it go.


Sentence 2 should read:  I am not a grammarian but I do try to speak as though I finished the third grade.

Sentence 3:  All of my English teachers taught me to avoid using cliches when writing.

Sentence 4:  Ditto for 3.

Sentence 5:  Besides being a run-on, where is the question mark?

Sentence 6:  Best to include a solid white line of space before the next paragraph.

 ;D  ;)  :P


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 07:54:44 PM »
I'm sorry but I just can't stand it any longer.  I am not a grammarian but I do try to speak as though I finished third grade.  There are a lot of things I can stomach.  I can hold my tongue when someone says, "He played better than ME."  I don't mind if someone says, "I'll TAKE my clubs with me instead of BRING, but c'mon can't someone just send out the following memo, "Hey guys you didn't play good, you played WELL!!!"
Maybe we should declare good an adverb and let it go.


Sentence 2 should read:  I am not a grammarian but I do try to speak as though I finished the third grade.

Sentence 3:  All of my English teachers taught me to avoid using cliches when writing.

Sentence 4:  Ditto for 3.

Sentence 5:  Besides being a run-on, where is the question mark?

Sentence 6:  Best to include a solid white line of space before the next paragraph.

 ;D  ;)  :P



Thanks, I feel properly chastised.  It is good for the soul.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 07:56:03 PM »
Writing today is conversation. Be concise with a touch of mystery.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 07:56:50 PM »
Mark:

"The British and the Americans, two peoples separated by a common language."
Winston Churchill


Personally, Mark, I've been around the world enough to know that many to most Americans really don't care much about what other peoples think of them or even say about them. Their natural and apparently genuine reaction seems to be----so what, we have the power and we have the money and furthermore most of ya'll owes us bigtime because we are the ones who defended you in your darkest days. To some of us there is a certain psychological freedom that comes with our inherent lack of defensiveness that way.

Personally I think it is basically comical and shallow but I guess that is just who we are----we think we are the "can do" people, or at least we used to think that. ;)

Tom,

Tom,

Britain owes America much in the defeat of the Axis but you were no where to be found in our darkest days, from September 1939 until December of 1941. I can remember the Battle of Britain, the Blitz, the ongoing night bombing by the Luftwaffe, Dunkirk, where my father was  
one of the last off the beach and the Battle of the Atlantic. There was no doubt about, I do not think we would have survived without the industrial might and sacrifices of the American fighting man. As an aside, I understand that the US 8th Airforce in Britain had a higher casualty rate than just about any other unit in the war.

Sorry for the rant but I thought I would answer specifically about "the Darkest days' bit.


Bob




« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 09:15:03 PM by Bob_Huntley »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 07:57:43 PM »
One of the beauties of taking a cart is that the cover helps prevent sun stroke. How long have you carried your bag?

My wife has told me for years that the sun has boiled my brain.  I bought a hat but it did no good.  Too late, I guess.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 08:15:48 PM »
You are fighting the good fight, Tom.  Ignore these nay-sayers.  We are the inheritors of a marvelous, expansive, elastic language.  When wielded well, it is a joy to behold, and its use will be appreciated by those with an ear for such things.

That said, I've learned that playing grammar police is boorish to most everyone.  Language is not there to show our airs, but to communicate.  As long as both parties are getting the point across, it's all good to me.  One particular area I encourage is the creation of new words.  From craptastic to gianormous, if it gets a point across, it's in in my book.we didn't get to however many hundreds of thousands of words we have today by turning our backs on a new construct.  Why stop now?

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 10:25:16 PM »
Although GCA.com has grown considerably since opening, it is happily still a relatively small sitewith a famously friendly touch.

Count the adverbs!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 06:26:54 AM by Dan Herrmann »

TEPaul

Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2012, 10:49:00 PM »
Britain owes America much in the defeat of the Axis but you were no where to be found in our darkest days, from September 1939 until December of 1941.


Bob:

That's actual history and that has nothing to do with it because that's not the history we tell.

To Americans, we won both wars for you lonely little pip-squeaks over there. Never mind that we waited for three years to get into WW1 and about three years to get into WW2. One thing we are definitely noted for in the course of human events is our dramatic eleventh hour timing!!  

Or in the words of baseball lexicon----Americans are some of the best damned "clean up" relief pitchers the world has ever seen!!   ;)

Or if you're looking for something even more dramatic than that, we can hit a bases loaded game winning home run by dropping something like the first A-bombs on a bunch of little people running around in their underpants, and stewing them all up into a incredible ethereal looking 10,000 foot high mushroom cloud omelette and changing the course of human history forever!

Don't you just love us---we are the "can do" people or we sure do know how to make it look like that!   8)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:56:05 PM by TEPaul »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2012, 10:51:00 PM »
As someone who researched and studied the English language at the graduate level, I have a very hard time holding my stomach when people misappropriate rules of Latin or Greek into the rules of English. Nothing shows a deeper lack of understanding of fundamental linguistic concepts.

Sometimes, we all need to be able to just type "SMH."
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2012, 07:06:21 AM »

But then is it not better that the following  F@#k me, know what I mean, yerrrrr you assh#le, so I THINK it’s better WE stick WITH what we KNOW  and thank God for his mercy MERCY that is, know what I mean!!!!!! 

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2012, 07:46:21 AM »
Mark:

"The British and the Americans, two peoples separated by a common language."
Winston Churchill


Personally, Mark, I've been around the world enough to know that many to most Americans really don't care much about what other peoples think of them or even say about them. Their natural and apparently genuine reaction seems to be----so what, we have the power and we have the money and furthermore most of ya'll owes us bigtime because we are the ones who defended you in your darkest days. To some of us there is a certain psychological freedom that comes with our inherent lack of defensiveness that way.

Personally I think it is basically comical and shallow but I guess that is just who we are----we think we are the "can do" people, or at least we used to think that. ;)

Tom,

Tom,

Britain owes America much in the defeat of the Axis but you were no where to be found in our darkest days, from September 1939 until December of 1941. I can remember the Battle of Britain, the Blitz, the ongoing night bombing by the Luftwaffe, Dunkirk, where my father was  
one of the last off the beach and the Battle of the Atlantic. There was no doubt about, I do not think we would have survived without the industrial might and sacrifices of the American fighting man. As an aside, I understand that the US 8th Airforce in Britain had a higher casualty rate than just about any other unit in the war.

Sorry for the rant but I thought I would answer specifically about "the Darkest days' bit.


Bob






There are too many thoughts running through my brain to adequately respond to this statement, but I will give an effort anyway.(not enough space either)

Why were the "dark days" dark? Surely it was not just the initial military setbacks of WW2.

When did US Congress actually pass "Lend Lease" and when did it actually occur and why was it important?

Shadow wars are not the provence of the "Cold War". It happened long before Vietnam. Without the economic aid provided before the 30% plus casualties of the 8th air force, Great Britain would have fallen. Great Britains interests were backed up, bought, (depending on point of view) in Asia. Those actions were the direct cause of Japans' attack. FDRoosevelt engineered involvement in WW2. Germany's declaration was little more than a formality of what had already existed for some time. I am not saying that it was wrong to get involved in the war but I am saying your "darkest days " would have been a hell of a lot darker without American involvement during those darkest days. The 20th century was the "American Century" and last time I checked, it is over. I wonder what this century brings, perhaps better golf course design.

Brad Isaacs




Melvyn Morrow

Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2012, 08:27:51 AM »

Brad

Dark Days indeed, but it took some time for the Empire to get moving to support the old Homeland. Dark Day - did that not also relate to the Lend Lease agreement where all the old ships were released to us poor Brits. Seems some of my older family members served on old 'Tub'.  As for Britain fallen, sorry when did you get into the war - sometime in 1942, nearly three years after it started in Europe?

You did not win the war; we (together) won the war. Of course you helped, but from the Lease deal you did rather well out of it.

While WE won the war in the field we lost the war to the USSR in all the concessions a certain Gentleman made and that was not Churchill. The Cold War that lasted longer than WW2 was started because we held back; we allowed the USSR everything they wanted. Seems the same thing is still going on, we win the wars, our guys die then lose the peace and still our guys die.

Just in closing how many wars did the USA win alone in the American Century - was it one or two on islands south of the USA, please correct me if I am wrong.

There is no i in Team, well so I am told.


Jason Connor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2012, 09:32:18 AM »
My first thought when I saw the subject was that we can no longer talk about SLOW play.

My second thought was that board traffic would decrease by 33%.

We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Jim Nelson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2012, 09:53:23 AM »

Brad

Dark Days indeed, but it took some time for the Empire to get moving to support the old Homeland. Dark Day - did that not also relate to the Lend Lease agreement where all the old ships were released to us poor Brits. Seems some of my older family members served on old 'Tub'.  As for Britain fallen, sorry when did you get into the war - sometime in 1942, nearly three years after it started in Europe?

You did not win the war; we (together) won the war. Of course you helped, but from the Lease deal you did rather well out of it.

While WE won the war in the field we lost the war to the USSR in all the concessions a certain Gentleman made and that was not Churchill. The Cold War that lasted longer than WW2 was started because we held back; we allowed the USSR everything they wanted. Seems the same thing is still going on, we win the wars, our guys die then lose the peace and still our guys die.

Just in closing how many wars did the USA win alone in the American Century - was it one or two on islands south of the USA, please correct me if I am wrong.

There is no i in Team, well so I am told.


Brad and Melvyn
I know I'm going to hate myself for doing this, but I just can't resist.

Really you guys.  This is not about golf, even though Brad tried to sneak in a golf reference at the end.  And you guys really do need to look at your grammar.  But speaking of golf in the Soviet Union...

Anybody who thinks that either the United States or the United Kingdom would have beat the Axis without the Soviet Union has not spent anytime examining the history of WWII.  They took the brunt of best the German Wehrmacht could throw at them and suffered horrific losses, far more than the US and the UK combined and then some.  The post-war politics is quite another discussion, but please, let's have at least some intellectual honesty. 

So, how many golf courses are there in Russia or the Ukraine for that matter.
I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world.  This makes it hard to plan the day.  E. B. White

TEPaul

Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2012, 10:03:10 AM »
"Dark Day - did that not also relate to the Lend Lease agreement where all the old ships were released to us poor Brits."


Melvyn:


As with most seminal, historical events of the size and magnitude of WW2, understanding all their multifarious details is immensely complex. Lend Lease is really no different. The best and most enlightening book I've ever seen on the subject just may be Franklin and Winston by John Meacham and ironically its theme is actually the entire chronicle of the personal relationship between Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill, which was in and of itself immensely complex which perhaps very few realize today!

Lend Lease had many parts and many maneuvers and ramifications too. Of course within the first year of the war in Europe Churchill was completely desperate! He knew he and the British needed Roosevelt and America or they just wouldn't last long against the Nazis.

In my opinion, Churchill really was sort of what the world and the public saw, but Roosevelt----not even close. FDR really was the MASTER political craftsman! He just played Churchill along for about two years telling him one thing and basically just doing another. Roosevelt didn't do it without reason----he had his own political issues to worry about right here in America and the fact was politically he knew at that time America did not want to go to war in Europe again---politically, both in the halls of government and in the main streets of America the sentiment at that time was remarkably isolationist.

Lend Lease was FDR's first and real compromise in what-all HE had to deal with at that time. And probably most don't even understand what kind of a negotiation it was anyway. The US did agree to lend the British a ton of ships and materials but in return America got a whole lot with long term leases and essentially control of British installations all over the world.

You see, ultimately, and as this book does tell in some real detail, the problem between FDR and Churchill (other than a few lingering personal problems from way back around WW1) was that Churchill was not only trying to get Britain to survive the war against the Nazis he was also one of the most active and vocal proponents for the long-term maintenance and endurance of the so-called BRITISH EMPIRE!

FDR clearly did not agree with that or want that in the future and the best he would agree to with Churchill and the rest was some new combination of a British AND AMERICAN global EMPIRE. As history does show FDR definitely won that one and in spades, at least for the next half century or so!

But back to Lend Lease----it was clever indeed, and some of the details of its ramifications may even seem bizarre to us today. My father's second MOS in the US Navy in the war was actually on a REVERSE Lend Lease DE (destroyer escort) in which he crossed the North Atlantic on convoys about ten times. In other words, that DE was British and it was one of those rare ships the British actually leased to the Americans apparently to make the Lend Lease Act seem more like a two way deal. Apparently RDR did it that way to quell the isolationist fervor in America at the time!

But it gets more bizarre with that REVERSE Lend Lease DE my dad first sailed on in his convoy MOS duty which would last him the rest of the war (later he would sail on a couple of more American DEs). When Dad was the gunnery officer on that British DE in the beginning of the war for America his ports of call were Norfolk/Newport News over here and Londonderry Northern Ireland over there. Every time they were in port on both sides the British made the Americans put the entire ship under canopy. Why? Because the British were worried about spies and they did not trust the American security apparatus (basically the FBI because we did not even have the CIA at the time (only a precusor known as the OSS which was actually infiltrated by some British Russian spies, particularly the notorious Kim Philby)).

History of events like that are really complex, Melvyn, and its messy and certainly not as simplistic and cut and dried as perhaps told after the fact in places like Scottish and UK pubs and American bars or even on golf architecture websites!   ;)

For God's Sakes, even a man like my father who lived in it and fought in it said he never really knew what-all was going on at any time when it was happening. I used to question him endlessly about it all and he refused to speak about it. Finally in the 1980s towards the end of his life when I wouldn't stop bothering him about it he finally said this to me.

"Tommy, all I knew, and all I thought about, was staying on my feet, staying dry, and staying alive. I couldn't have cared less what Roosevelt, Churchill or even Adolf Hitler was doing or thinking."
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 10:12:20 AM by TEPaul »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2012, 10:17:03 AM »
In America we send our boys who don't speak well to defend those who may.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2012, 10:22:25 AM »
OK but where is the i in Team or was it not our war - lets get back to golf and carts and how some sod killing the game by allowing carts and now distance aids. Carts the anti golf Tiger Tank of its day. Distance aids the V1 with the electronic aids being the V2's

Who was talking about the war? Think anyone noticed?

Have a nice day ;)

Melvyn

PS No i in Melvyn, but still a team player - when allowed.

TEPaul

Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2012, 10:23:22 AM »
Jim Nelson:

Excellent point about Russia. WE were "Allies" in WW2 against the so-called AXIS. We were allies from around the globe----Canadians, Australians and others and others. Some of us might have been slightly uneasy allies but we were ALLIES nonetheless and in 1945 we ALLIES from all over the world got the job done and the military apparatuses of the so-called AXIS were beaten and put under wraps for a considerable time following it all.

I think the men from all over the world who fought in the war on the ALLIED side really did feel some sense of commonality during that time but there always was and probably always will be various forms of jingoist pride that they eventually fall back on. This is pretty much what we see today in how people like Melvyn over there or me over here interpret what happened back then so long ago. Would our fathers and grandfathers who lived through it and fought it see it as we do?

I guess that is the question when one thinks about, looks at and tries to interpret what really happened with some now historical event.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (very ot) Let's just get rid of adverbs
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2012, 10:56:02 AM »
Forgive me for I graduate at South Dakota Tech and now I is a engineer.

It helps in the culling the Nigerian scams. ;)

Bring back the grammar books from the 1960s for public schools.