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Mark_Rowlinson

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Early US Open courses
« on: June 18, 2012, 11:06:48 AM »
Looking at the roster of US Open courses up to, say, 1920 there are familiar names such as Shinnecock Hills, Baltusrol, Chicago and so on. There are also unfamiliar names to some of us on this side of the pond such as Glen View and Onwentsia. I believe Englewood no longer exists. Which of these courses is the least altered since it held its Open(s)? On which course would I most be able to sense what it was like back then? Were any of the courses that held multiple early Opens, such as Myopia, altered significantly between Opens?

1895 Newport, 1896 Shinnecock, 1897 Chicago, 1898 Myopia, 1899 Baltimore (Roland Park),1900 Chicago, 1901 Myopia, 1902 Garden City, 1903 Baltusrol (Old), 1904 Glen View, 1905 Myopia, 1906 Onwentsia, 1907 Philadelphia Cricket Club, 1908 Myopia, 1909 Englewood, 1910 Philadelphia Cricket Club, 1911 Chicago, 1912 CC of Buffalo, 1913 The Country Club, 1914 Midlothian, 1915 Baltusrol (Old), 1916 Minikahda, 1919 Brae Burn, 1920 Inverness.

Feel free to draw a later deadline if it suits your purpose.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 01:44:21 PM »
Leeds continued to tweek Myopia until about 1917, the course today is very close to that version.

I believe CC of Buffalo moved to a new location, and that US Open course is now a public course. I'm not sure how untouched.

Philadelphia Cricket moved to another site too, and I don't think the old one survived.

Inverness underwent a major redesign by Fazio. Ross redesigned Minikhada after 1916. Chicago was redesigned by Raynor. My guess is Brae Burn is pretty close. I don't know about Onwentsia and Midlothian, but I'd be surprised if they weren't changed. There was a wrecking ball of local architects that redesigned just about every course in that city in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

David Cronheim

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Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 02:33:10 PM »
Our esteemed GCA-er Tom Doak did the redesign work at Onwentsia, which I have had the pleasure of playing a dozen or so times. Tom could speak more to it, but I gather his work was not so much a change as a restoration. The course was originally built in a prairie, but had become completely forested. Tom came in and returned the course to its original prairie configuration.

The greenskeeper has an excellent blog that's worth a quick look:

http://www.oc1895.net/
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 05:55:53 PM »
If you're willing to draw the line at 1930, Interlachen is nearly identical to the course on which Bobby Jones won the third leg of the Grand Slam. Tom is right about Minikahda (1916); Ross didn't leave much undisturbed, though 1, 10, 15, 16, 17 and 18 were not part of his redesign.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 10:39:58 PM »
CC of Buffalo (what's left of it) is now "Grover Cleveland" - a county-owned course across the street from University at Buffalo's Main Street campus.  

I played Grover Cleveland twice and it was pretty forgettable.  To show the respect it gets, the area used it as a dumping ground for snow during the Blizzard of '77.  If I recall correctly, it was still saturated in '78.

That said, it's a great deal - costs < $20 to play :)

----------------------
This is a great thread - Other idea - check out the early course the US AM, US Women's AM, etc. were played on.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 10:45:12 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Wayne Freeman

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Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2012, 01:22:38 AM »
Two U.S. Open courses no longer exist... property sold to developers and now housing projects....   Englewood as mentioned
  above, and Fresh Meadow, on Long Island, site of the 1932 Open.

 Part of Philly Cricket does remain..  9 holes are left at the original Cricket club... the other holes were sold to a builder. And it
   is a very cool experience.  Tiny greens with the small flags and mostly very short holes.

 All that is left of the Open course at Baltimore is a remnant of the first hole at the downtown Athletic Club.   You can still make
  out the old green site down the steep slope of the hole. 

  I thought Grover Cleveland was sort of cool... about 12 of the original holes remain and there are some interesting features.  Plus it's a fun group of locals.

D_Malley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2012, 09:35:38 AM »
http://www.philacricket.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=305411&ssid=192328&vnf=1

only 9 holes remain, i know at least the old 1st hole and 18th hole are exactly the same (now numbers 1 and 9).
not sure how the rest of the course played.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2012, 01:59:19 PM »
Mark, one thing to keep in mind when looking at the early US Open and its courses is that, originally, the USOpen was very much the redheaded step child as compared to the US Amateur.  Originally it was almost an afterthought to the US Amateur and held immediately following on the same course.  But some of the better clubs didn't want to deal with the Open tournament and if memory serves at least one refused to host the Amateur if it meant the club had to take the Open as well.  There was even some talk of doing away with the event all together, but rather than canceling it moved to its new time slot (three months before the Amateur) and got its own venue.  If I recall correctly from what I have read in 1898 Myopia was the only club  willing to take the tournament, and whether anyone would was in doubt for a while.  Obviously, the tournament eventually grew in importances, and increasing skill level of American professionals certainly helped, as did the participation of stars from abroad, and of course the victory by Ouimet over Vardon and Ray at The Country Club in 1913.

Not sure what it anything this says about the early host courses, though.  On the one hand, there were obviously some very good host courses, or at least they became very good as they developed.  On the other hand, the selection process for the Open venue (once it split away from the Amateur) was hardly competitive.  Some of the early courses hosted simply because they were willing to take on the burden when no other club would.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2012, 09:12:48 PM »
1921 US Open was held at Columbia CC in Chevy Chase, MD and I understand that much of the course is unchanged.  There apparently were some hole changes when they lost some land to a utility company or something like that but the membership is proud to say that they have the original pushup greens.  They had claimed that their 16th was the inspiration for the 12th at ANGC but that has been pretty much been proven to be a myth.  Overall it is a really interesting course on a very small piece of property. 

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2012, 09:29:45 PM »
At the time it was built, their 16th was widely reported to have based on GCGC's 12th.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 05:35:38 AM »
Jerry,

It is often said that the prototype of the 12th at Augusta was one of the short holes (the 7th) at Stoke Poges/Stoke Park, a Colt course west of London made famous by the James Bond Goldfinger movie. I played it several time in the 80s/90s when it was affordable - it's now part of a seriously expensive resort. It certainly had the same basic strategy and will have pre-dated ANGC.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 07:05:09 AM »
Jerry,

It is often said that the prototype of the 12th at Augusta was one of the short holes (the 7th) at Stoke Poges/Stoke Park, a Colt course west of London made famous by the James Bond Goldfinger movie. I played it several time in the 80s/90s when it was affordable - it's now part of a seriously expensive resort. It certainly had the same basic strategy and will have pre-dated ANGC.

Nice try, Mark, but all we Scotophiles know that the 12th at Augusta was based on Mackenzie's 12th at Pitreavie.... ;)
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Doug Spets

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 07:29:11 AM »
stoke poges was the inspiration for the original 16 at ANGC, later completely repositioned and rebuilt by trent jones after about 16 years of existence. 

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2012, 07:29:55 AM »
Rich,

My old music teacher at school used to say that all music is derived from one note and that you get your doctorate for discovering and proving which note.

By analogy, all golf holes must be derived from one hole - you get your doctorate for discovering and proving which hole.

It has a ring to it, doesn't it: Rd Rihc

Mark.

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2012, 07:48:03 AM »
Doug,

I am sure you are right, and I don't know what the original 16th at Augusta was like. Here's a link to the Stoke Park course plan and you'll see that the 7th has features in common with the 12th at Augusta. The course had a makeover some years ago when it ceased to be a private club and it's possible that at that time the 7th was made to resemble the 12th at Augusta. I remember playing it before the makeover and I could easily have been persuaded with the argument. I don't know whether MacKenzie ever visited Stoke Park/Poges. Looking on the MacKenzie timeline there is no mention of his ever having been there..

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2012, 02:01:04 PM »
Mark,  I think you forgot the link . .
_____________________________________________________________

Since we have veered off topic to inspirations for great greens, I am wondering if any of you have any idea of the possible inspiration for the horseshoe or donut formation of mounding within a green itself.   Travis and/or Emmett (probably Travis) did this at GCGC in the extreme, CBM did this at NGLA and CBM/Raynor did it elsewhere, Barker did this at Columbia (reportedly based on GCGC), and Emmett did it at a few courses, and Travis might have done it elsewhere as well.

It could be that they all just thought it was a cool idea to have a protected area on the interior of the green where anything but the most accurate shots would be repelled, but I wonder if they (at least Travis and CBM) might have had a some particular green in mind.  (While CBM's supposed template holes were loose approximations, he does write mention on multiple occasions that many of his greens were copies from abroad.)

Can any of you think if a green like this?   One that Travis and/or CBM might have seen in the first decade of the 1900's?   Thanks.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2012, 02:17:35 PM »

Tim_Cronin

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Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2012, 07:16:03 PM »
Midlothian hasn't been tinkered with much. There's no room to lengthen it, for one thing. It played 6,380 yards in the 1901 Western Open (and about that length for the 1914 U.S. Open) and 6,654 in the 1973 Western Open. And Onwentsia is in a delightful time warp. Walk into the clubhouse or toward the first tee, and it's 1930.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2012, 08:14:42 PM »
"Philadelphia Cricket moved to another site too, and I don't think the old one survived."


Not really. Philadelphia Cricket club built another course in another place but they never gave up the original, it survived and its alive and well. The original is called Philadelphia Cricket Club--St Martins, and the other site is called Philadelphia Cricket Club---Flourtown. St Martins held an early US Open or two.

Myopia is interesting historically because it held four US Opens in ten years. Herbert Leeds very well may've been one of American golf's biggest elitists and he essentially refused to hold a US Amateur at Myopia because he did not think the accommodations were suitable at that time for the top amateurs for a US Amateur! He finally browbeat Mr Frick (partner of Andrew Carnegie) into building the locker-room which Leeds thought he needed to host a US Amateur!

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2012, 08:35:23 PM »
"Mark, one thing to keep in mind when looking at the early US Open and its courses is that, originally, the USOpen was very much the redheaded step child as compared to the US Amateur.  Originally it was almost an afterthought to the US Amateur and held immediately following on the same course.  But some of the better clubs didn't want to deal with the Open tournament and if memory serves at least one refused to host the Amateur if it meant the club had to take the Open as well.  There was even some talk of doing away with the event all together, but rather than canceling it moved to its new time slot (three months before the Amateur) and got its own venue.  If I recall correctly from what I have read in 1898 Myopia was the only club  willing to take the tournament, and whether anyone would was in doubt for a while."



Mark:

All true above, sort of. Myopia was the first club where the US Open was separated from the end of the US Amateur, but I don't think that it happened that way only because no other club wanted the US Open in 1898. If one reads the old newspapers they were having some trouble and they were a bit late in scheduling the US Open in 1898 but that does not mean no other club wanted the US Open. Scheduling late is or was sometimes just an occupational hazard of some golf associations for various reasons. One of the reasons that kind of thing happened is because back then they scheduled it year to year instead of going about ten years out as they do today!

The real reason the US Open was separated from the end of the US Amateur is because a number of influential people in golf administration simply thought the top amateurs would be too tired out competing in the US Open after competing for about a week in the US Amateur so they separated the US Open and gave it its own site and its own date.

There was even a time when the US Amateur had a draw of 128. That really was close to a solid week of match play for the victor including 36 holes a day in some rounds. To win a 128 draw tournament the winner would have to win what----eight straight matches!

Then there was the year of Max Marston in I think 1923. Jim Finegan referred to it as perhaps the finest run of golf in golf history. Marston did not lose a match in ANYTHING all year long. It including a match against Bobby Jones in the US Amateur that Jones would refer to as the finest golf between two opponents he ever knew of!

Max Marston played from Merion but he did join Gulph Mills at some point and I have been working my ass off to try to figure out when he joined GMGC because if he belonged in 1923 that would mean we have two members who won USGA Championships.* The other is Buddy Marucci in like 2009 or 2010 when he won the senior amateur. In 2010 a lady from GMGC got to the finals of the US Senior Women's Amateur. She had never come close to doing anything like that before. She said in the finals it was maybe a bit too obvious that the USGA was pulling for her because if she won she would be the first person in any USGA match play championship in history to come from the 64th seed and actually win!

*If back then he was our one and only USGA championship it would be doubly ironic because in the 1930s Max did not pay his bill and the club threw him out. It would be typical of GMGC for them to throw out the only USGA champion they ever had for something like that. They basically don't care who the hell you are as long as you just mind your manners!  (What's that old saying---eg you pay your club before you pay your tailor or shoemaker). ;)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 08:47:05 PM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2012, 09:19:17 PM »
Mark:

We did do work at Onwentsia, as noted above, but it would not be correct to call that a "restoration".  We considered restoration, but the U.S. Open layout of 1900 was only 5500 yards and there were a lot of square greens and other unappealing features ... the course had been changed considerably since then, and the members wanted to move a bit further forward instead of taking it back.  The clubhouse is wonderful and still provides the time-warp feeling Tim Cronin mentioned, but the golf course, not so much.

I would say that Myopia Hunt Club or Newport C.C. probably feels most like a turn-of-the-century U.S. Open course today.  Or the remaining nine at Philly Cricket.

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2012, 09:56:20 PM »
Englewood in NJ was Ross, as is my understanding. 

If you were to go to NY on 80/95, it's about a half-mile to a mile from the west side of the GWB.  There are condos on the site today.  As it appears, the course lasted in some form until sometime in the 1970s; the interstates were cut through in the 1950s.

The appearance on some of the features in the aerials (square bunkers, etc) reminds me a bit of Lulu. Where/when was Englewood in Ross' timeline?
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2012, 10:11:25 PM »
"I would say that Myopia Hunt Club or Newport C.C. probably feels most like a turn-of-the-century U.S. Open course today.  Or the remaining nine at Philly Cricket."


TomD:

Myopia sure does. Everything about that place is like a time-warp and that's just the way they like it. Can you believe that I can still smoke in the dinning-room out by the 18th green? That has got to be the last clubhouse in America where I can still smoke, and to think it has never burned down after all these years.

Actually the real problem with Myopia and even NGLA is that with these really good players today they just don't really have any challenging par 5s for them anymore.

Tom, here's a tip for you-----eg when you route par 5s in the future make sure they have at least a 100 yards of elasticity behind your tip tees! From your tip tees route them forward about 50 yards from the previous green so you won't ever need more than 50 behind it.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2012, 12:35:18 AM »
Regarding post 19 above, it is unfortunate that the desire to disagree with me is stronger in some than is the desire to present accurate information.

It is true that there was a movement (lead by H.J. Whigham) to separate the Amateur and the Open in time so that the top Amateurs would not have to play both tournaments back to back. But the danger was, if they separated the tournaments in time, the USGA was concerned that they could not find any club to host the Open.  From the minutes:

Granville Kane: The idea is that some clubs might care to hold the amateur championship and do not care to hold the open championship. Therefore, I should say that the two events should be held by separate clubs on separate links.
. . .
S. L. Parrish: The open event seems to be unpopular, so far as I make out. Are we liable to run into this condition of affairs, that everybody will be scrambling for the amateur event? We are liable to be placed in the position of whether, anybody would be willing to take the open event.  One represents cream and the other skim-milk, and we should consider whether those who wish the cream should not be compelled to take it diluted. And I would like to ask an expression of opinion from these gentlemen, when they were called upon to make application for the open event, whether it is the opinion of the golfers here tonight that the open event would be liable to obtain a candidate, because, if it does not, there is nothing in our constitution or by-laws to compel a club to accept the open event.


Indeed the event was unpopular enough amongst the clubs that Samuel Parrish contemplated that the USGA would have to offer cash to incentivize any club to take on the Open tournament, whereas the host of the Amateur would have to "pay its own expenses:" 

S. L. Parrish: There is one element there. The executive committee has been allowing a certain amount of money to the club which held the combination event. Now, I apprehend that some clubs would not take the open event, on the ground of the expense. In other words, they would not feel that the bother and trouble of it was warranted by the honor. If, on the other hand, a certain amount of money was appropriated to the club which held the open event, with the understanding that the club which held the amateur event should pay its own expenses, I think it might possibly create 'an' equilibrium. In other words, the amateur event would be rewarded by honor, -and- the open event would be rewarded by a certain amount of cash.

And these weren't hypothetical concerns. At the 1898 annual meeting there were two clubs seeking the Amateur, Morris County and St. Andrews. Morris County, though, tendered an offer to host only the Amateur, and not the Open.  They explicitly stated they would not host the Open.   St. Andrews also wanted to host the Amateur, and was willing to take the Open as a package deal.  But once the dates were split, and Morris County was awarded the Amateur, St. Andrews did not throw its hat in the ring to host the Open.    So we had one club unwilling to take the Open under any circumstance, and the other only willing to take the Open if they were also given the Amateur.  Hardly a prestige event.  So at the end of the annual meeting, there was no club willing to take the Open.

Myopia, though, was the one club not represented at the meeting, and sometime thereafter, Myopia agreed to take the "skim milk," as Samuel Parrish put it.   I don't know whether the club was offered the special financial incentives that Parrish had mentioned at the meeting.   


Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Early US Open courses
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2012, 12:45:08 AM »
"1921 US Open was held at Columbia CC in Chevy Chase, MD and I understand that much of the course is unchanged.  There apparently were some hole changes when they lost some land to a utility company or something like that but the membership is proud to say that they have the original pushup greens.  They had claimed that their 16th was the inspiration for the 12th at ANGC but that has been pretty much been proven to be a myth.  Overall it is a really interesting course on a very small piece of property."


Jerry Kluger:

Wayne and I spent quite a bit of time there with a restoration architect and otherwise, and some of the details of the achitectural evolution of that golf course are hard to figure out----really hard. I think we got pretty much the broad brush of it but there are a few details here and there that are maddening to try to pin down.