[TEPaul]

"If David Elvins' photo is from the correct spot, I stand corrected and the Stop Sign does, in fact, need to be removed."



Chiperino:

It was my suggestion that they not remove the Stop Sign but merely replace it with another sign (perhaps green) that looks like a Stop Sign but simply reads:

"Please Proceed From Here at Your Own Risk"

[DMoriarty]

100 years later Merion has a "road hole".  

Reading past the sarcasm, Joe knows that Merion had "a road hole" from the beginning, It was reported as such in June 1915. As Jim mentioned, the 6th hole was based on the principles of the road hole.  And the early descriptions of the hole have it playing very much like a road hole. Here is a description from the NY Times in 1916, prior to the Open, when the hole was the 3rd:

The 3rd hole is 427 yards, par 4, and the best way to play it is to "cross a fence before you come to it."  In other words the shortest route to the green is across the corner of somebody's corn lot, with an open shot to the green if the carry is made, and a half dozen assorted shots back to the fairway if the ball falls short.  The golfer who plays safe by taking the dog-leg journey to the right toward the green will hardly reach his destination in two strokes, as there is a pit just short of the green directly in his path, and placed there for the express purpose of thwarting his intentions.  

Substitute "corn lot" for a "RR barn" and there you have Merion's Road Hole.   Thanks to Joe for bringing this up as I am sure that must have been his intention.  

[DMoriarty]

On to more serious matters of this stop sign . . .

I was looking closely at the photo in David Elvin's post above and it looked to me like something more than just "STOP" might have been written on the sign.  I blew it up and tried to lighten it and focus it a but still cannot quite make it out.  

Can anyone with better eyesight figure out what it says?  

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Do you think a tee for #6 over near Ardmore Ave would create a Road Hole type strategic design there?"


Jim:

You can take this for whatever you think it's worth but in Oct. 1912 MCC swapped with Wheeler Estate (originally the Eaton Estate) land they owned behind the 2nd green for land along the right side of #6 (originally the 3rd). Whatever their purpose they were actually adding land to the course along the right of #6 and giving some up behind #2 green. I guess this would be something like TOC buying the railroad yard (now a hotel) on the right of the Road Hole to reduce the necessity of driving the ball over OB (of course TOC never did this but MCC did in Oct 1912).

Essentially they were removing from actual OB a strip of land on the right of #6 about 25 yards wide and about 65 yards long and making it their property. This was done about a month after the East course first opened for play. Apparently they were not too interested in a Road Hole tee shot concept on what is now #6. As you know for many years now it is not possible to hit a tee shot on that hole over OB (Merion actually bought all that land about 10-12 years ago) and back onto the 6th hole unless you hooked it by about 50 yards. They used to have a lot more fairway up there on the right of #6 and I'm sorry they took it out and basically narrowed the fairway down some to the left side minimizing any original Road Hole strategic tee shot design effect even more.  

[Dan Herrmann]

David M - Perfectly said!  I love that sign - perhaps you should e-mail a copy to Mike Davis (who's work I love, but Merion makes me think, "really??")

[Sean Leary]

Who cares if they put a tee box back there for the US Open? Members and guests will never play it and as far as I can tell, they aren't removing the current tee boxes....

[DMoriarty]

Who cares if they put a tee box back there for the US Open? Members and guests will never play it and as far as I can tell, they aren't removing the current tee boxes....

Sean,  You may be correct and I hope you are correct, but it doesn't always work that way.   One would think they couldn't continue to use this tee in regular play if only because of the danger.

But my concerns are more directed to the changes as a whole at Merion and elsewhere.  Also I think the USOpen setups paint a horrible image of what golf at its highest level is all about, and these things impact other courses.  
_________________________________________________________________________


As for Merion's real Road Hole, the club did trade for a small rectangle of land at the corner of the out of bounds directly in front of the tee.  Then they built mounds and bunkers on the rectangle to make the tee shot over the corner perhaps even even more difficult and intimidating.  In other words, they were hardly moving away from the road hole concept by acquiring this small rectangle of land.

[Sean Leary]

Who cares if they put a tee box back there for the US Open? Members and guests will never play it and as far as I can tell, they aren't removing the current tee boxes....

Sean,  You may be correct and I hope you are correct, but it doesn't always work that way.   One would think they couldn't continue to use this tee in regular play if only because of the danger.

But my concerns are more directed to the changes as a whole at Merion and elsewhere.  Also I think the USOpen setups paint a horrible image of what golf at its highest level is all about, and these things impact other courses.  

Agreed, but the setups always have.

To me, new tee boxes are no big deal, especially if they can be done easily. Even more especially at private clubs, where the members know better. The redoing of greens is a different and more valid concern to worry about other clubs/courses mimicking..

[DMoriarty]

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense, but even the crazy tee boxes send a pretty unhealthy message to the rest of golf. Sure the USGA setups have always been crazy, but I wish they would stop the madness.  Unreasonable difficulty has always been somewhat of a shortsighted selling point in golf architecture, and it seems the USGA has done much more to encourage this insanity than discourage it, and that his hardly "for the good of the game."

For example for part of the Amateur* the USGA had Merion's par three 3rd hole playing at 270 or 280 yards, even though the hole was designed and built for around 175 yards.  That is just plain ridiculous whether for one tournament or not, and hardly "for the good of the game."

And that to me should be the question they ask themselves with every decision they make and with every change they request.  Is this really "for the good of the game?"

So that is my soapbox speech for today.  

__________________
EDIT: *Actually it was the 2009 Walker Cup Matches, not the 2005 Amateur.

[Patrick_Mucci]

This again sends the worst possible signal to local clubs hoping to add length to combat hi-tech

It's a BAD golf hole as depicted below and no amount of misguided defense can change that

Merion is/has selling/sold their architectural soul.
Prestwick preserved theirs.
There's a lesson to be learned, unfortunately the fascination and lure of the Open has anesthetized too many Boards.

Below clicks out at 480 yards (with an approx 300 yard tee shot):

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Are you the same person who constantly recommended that NGLA add a good deal of length to holes such as #7 and #18?

Watch yourself, Patrick, because most people on here and elsewhere recognize what a double standard and a hypocite is!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Are you the same person who constantly recommended that NGLA add a good deal of length to holes such as #7 and #18?
ABSOLUTELY, and with good reason, the purpose of the added length on #'s 7 and 18 was to bring the critical architectural features BACK into play, whereas other ignoramuses merely wanted to change par on those holes,leaving the bunkers as vestigial architectural features, largely ignored, thus abandoning Macdonald's strategic intent.

At Merion, the drive being created has little or no architectural relevance and is being done solely for length and length alone, altering the original intended playing characteristics of the hole, whereas, at NGLA, there's a restoration of the playing characteristics of the holes.

Asking, demanding that a golfer hit driver out of bounds, over trees and houses OFF the property seems ludicrous in that setting.

Those tall trees are not far removed from the tee, requiring howitzer like tee shots.

How would a golfer who FADES the ball play that hole from the Blue dot ?
How would a golfer with lower trajectory, especially a fader, play that hole from the blue dot ?

It's an absurd alteration and your defense of it is likewise absurd.

Have you ever heard of the concepts of "independent thought" and "deviating from the party line" ?

That you don't recognize and understand the difference is why you need me to educate you further.
You have so much to learn and I only have so much time I can devote to your education.

Watch yourself, Patrick, because most people on here and elsewhere recognize what a double standard and a hypocite is!
Are you talking from experience ?

[Bill Brightly]

Can someone explain to me if the entire teeing area shown is new, or just the most extreme back, left tip of the tee pictured?
Also, I would guess that they might only use the "blue dot" once and move the tees right and slightly forward on the other days.

[Dan Herrmann]

Bill - from what I remember, it's mostly all new.  They had a tee back on the practice putting green during the Walker Cup, but nowhere near as dumb as the new tee. 

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Thanks for your explanations on #36.  It's pretty much all I needed you to say and pretty much all I wanted others who read this website to hear you say.

Thanks
Your long suffering GCA mentor and Master Teacher

[ChipOat]

Before we trash the U.S. Open version of #14, could we confirm that I was, in fact, standing too far to the right?

Bill Brightly et al:

That general area doesn't have all that many flat spots as it is, after all, a practice putting green.

Others will get to Merion before my next visit, but I'm wondering if the flat area to which I was directed is all that far off from where the tee markers will actually be?

Is that possible?

Re: Prestwick and the preservation of their architectural heritage versus hosting further R&A championships.  I've only played the course twice, but I'm not sure they have even half the room that Merion does (which isn't much) to keep up with the modern game.  Also, the last time I looked, hosting championships almost always has benefits to the host club.  I don't think Prestwick is any more (or less) legitimate than Merion, Olympic, Winged Foot etc. for the choice they made many years ago - voluntary or otherwise.

[Dan Herrmann]

Chip - If I recall correctly, the new tee is getting back there, length-wise back near the inside dogleg bunker on #1.   But it's right against Golf House Road, if that makes sense.   Actually, I remember standing on the new tee and we were talking easily to somebody on the road.

[TEPaul]

Bill Brightly:

It's a bit complicated to explain all that's going on in that aerial Bausch used. It's complicated to explain unless you remember the evolution of that area in the last decade or so but I'll try to explain it to you and if you think you're not understanding something, please ask.

Can you see that faint white line behind the original #14th tee (it goes perpindicular from left to right to what looks like a small bunker) at 440yds and what's just above that faint white line and to the right of it? That is the old practice putting green.

For the 2005 US Amateur they redesigned the portion of that practice putting green behind the original tee to double as a back tee AND practice putting green.

Everything that is below that faint white line is new and is the new combined pratice putting green a portion of which (basically on its right side (on the clubhouse side) and in and around that blue dot is a flattish area of the new practice putting green that will double as the new back tee for the US Open. Behind that blue dot the practice putting green falls off sharply and cannot double as tee space.

Get it? If not please ask questions.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Thanks for your explanations on #36.  It's pretty much all I needed you to say and pretty much all I wanted others who read this website to hear you say.

Thanks
Your long suffering GCA mentor and Master Teacher

TE,

You forgot to inform the readers that we had a mutual agreement.  
You would teach me all you know and be my mentor and Master Teacher about Stock Car Racing and in exchange I would be your Mentor and Master Teacher about Golf Course Architecture.

I must say, you've exhibited a very flat learning curve and are still laboring with the fundamentals, but, I'll continue to try to further your education for another year or so.

P.S.  It's a "dogleg" not a "cat leg"

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Your sense of humor as reflected on that last post, if that's what you think it is, has pretty much worn thin now on this website. There probably will be a next step at some point, and somehow and somewhere but now and here may not be the right time or place.

Good night and get some rest,

I think you need it, and so do I.

Tomorrow I have a shit-load of mowing to do!!

[DMoriarty]

Before we trash the U.S. Open version of #14, could we confirm that I was, in fact, standing too far to the right?

Chip,

Have you watched the video posted by Eric in one of the first response posts?   The superintendent indicates about the spot from where that photo posted by David was taken.  In fact I assumed it was a screen grab. The section on the 14th starts at about the 16:30 mark on the video.  He would know, wouldn't he?

Re: Prestwick and the preservation of their architectural heritage versus hosting further R&A championships.  I've only played the course twice, but I'm not sure they have even half the room that Merion does (which isn't much) to keep up with the modern game.  Also, the last time I looked, hosting championships almost always has benefits to the host club.  I don't think Prestwick is any more (or less) legitimate than Merion, Olympic, Winged Foot etc. for the choice they made many years ago - voluntary or otherwise.

I am not sure what you mean by "more (or less) legitimate . . ?" If the issue is the preservation of the great old courses, then why isn't Prestwick more "legitimate?" Would you agree that Prestwick is now doing a better job at preserving what is left of their historic course as compared to courses that make major changes to try and stay relevant?

[TEPaul]

"For example for part of the Amateur the USGA had Merion's par three 3rd hole playing at 270 or 280 yards, even though the hole was designed and built for around 175 yards.  That is just plain ridiculous whether for one tournament or not, and hardly "for the good of the game."



Mr Reply #33 poster:

Would you please actually and truthfully confirm any or all of that statement with some independent confirmation or consider retracting it as inaccurate and incorrect?

[DMoriarty]

My mistake. The USGA reportedly had Merion's par three 3rd hole playing between 270-280 yards on Saturday at the Walker Cup Matches, not at the Amateur. 

Nonetheless my point remains the same.  Such changes are just plain ridiculous whether for one tournament or not, and hardly "for the good of the game."

[Dan Herrmann]

I agree - I was standing about 5' behind Ricky Fowler as he hit his fairway wood to #3.  The approach angle, height wise, was just too shallow to have a chance to get it close, other than by being lucky.

IIRC, the following day tee location was actually back up on #3's tee.  I think the USGA "tested" it out and found it didn't work.

[TEPaul]

On the yardage of #3 being wrong and the 2005 US Amateur being wrong; it seems accuracy and precision with information is demanded on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com on Merion.
 
We would not want someone a century from now quoting it and coming to the wrong conclusion, would we? 


Thank you for correcting your mistaken information!

On the old back tee on #3, I don't know exactly what it could play in the beginning but I remember it over the last thirty years as being able to play to 185-190+ and not a max of 175. If it played at up to 195 back in the beginning even for a good player I could see that being a wooden club. The green is somewhat higher than the tees as well.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()