[ChipOat]

In an older thread, someone noted that the angle of the new 14th "Open" tee box required a line very near a Stop Sign located on Golf House Road.

I stood on the flat spot to be used in 2013 and that Stop Sign isn't even close to the line a player will take (on purpose) in order to drive the ball in the fairway.

Hitting that sign from the teeing area requires a near-45 degree yank that would have a well struck shot on a line to be 200+ yards OB across at least one back yard, if not two.

It's a non-event. 

[Eric Smith]

Chip,

Is this where you were standing? If so, is the play out to the right of the stop sign?

[Joe Bausch]

Hitting that sign from the teeing area requires a near-45 degree yank that would have a well struck shot on a line to be 200+ yards OB across at least one back yard, if not two.

It's a non-event. 

Hmmm, I will have to think about this one.

[TEPaul]

Chip:

I don't exactly agree with you. The Stop Sign isn't the problem----it's basically the angle or potentially the angle depending on the club selected on the tee shot. With that new back tee that hole can play something like 480+. It's not the Stop Sign but the fact that the straight line to the LZ with a driver is basically over OB and trees on the other side of Golf Club Road that are on property owned by residents on the west side of Golf Club Road. If players hit a driver they will probably have to play a distinct draw from back there with a driver or else they will need to get it pretty high pretty quick?

[DMoriarty]

I am trouble reconciling Chip's comments with the video linked by Eric and comments by the superintendent on the video, starting at about 16:30.  

[ChipOat]

Maybe I was directed to the wrong flat spot and given bad info re: the location of the planned teeing ground.

If the real teeing area is on the LEFT (i.e. West) side of the practice putting area next to Golf House Road, then I stand corrected.

However, I was guided by a former club champion to a flat area on the CLUBHOUSE side of that space and the angle from back there is totally benign regarding trees, signs and OB assuming that the drive is reasonably well executed.

But then, I'm the guy who said, "I can't believe the USGA will put in a new back tee on #4 that would, by definition, be located in the left rough on #7."  So, what do I know?

[TEPaul]

Chip:

The teeing area is on the east or clubhouse side of the practice putting green.

[Dan Herrmann]

I've been on the new 14th tee, and a bomber will need to hit his shot OB to play the hole.  Yes, over the stop sign, and it's crazy.  While the tee will likely only be used for the Open, it still doesn't make sense.  

For what it's worth, I think the new fairway cut on #2 looks goofy too - leaving those right side bunkers out in the rough like little lost children.  

Why do great golf clubs do this to themselves?  This is like telling your fiancee she needs plastic surgery before you'll marry her.  I wish Merion would have just said "no" to these changes.

[ChipOat]

Tom,

Your post #6 seems to confirm that I was standing in the correct place re: 2013 U.S. Open tee box.

If yes, I just don't see what you're seeing in your post #3 or what Dan Hermann is seeing.

We must make an appointment to view this together followed by dinner, wine and more good conversation.  We should also take putters and a few balls to re-test the 12th and 15th greens + confirm my thesis re: the 5th green.  Then we will argue as to the proper solution versus the do-able solution.  I believe Merion has implemented the do-able solution which, if it's done well, is  completely harmless.

My schedule is not my own, but I'll be in touch.

Chip

[TEPaul]

"We should also take putters and a few balls to re-test the 12th and 15th greens + confirm my thesis re: the 5th green.  Then we will argue as to the proper solution versus the do-able solution."


Chiperino:

We can sure do that and it would be interesting but I can tell you right now----unless we do it at the green speed that will basically be used in the 2013 Open we will not even come remotely close to getting any kind of representative feedback.

Tournament pin testing is what I did almost every time I officiated and I really do know just how much putting playability ramps up exponentially when you get above around 11 on greens like those and greens like Merion's. It is absolutely amazing just how different a 13 is from an 11 or so on greens like those ones. It can be as big a difference as night and day. For instance on a big side swinging putt at 11 on the stimp you might be able to play like 4-5 feet of break and stop it around the cup but at 13 you need to double or triple that if you want the ball to stop "creeping" anywhere near the cup if it misses! The increase in actual speed is only about 20% but the increase in "break playability" is about 200% to 300%!

Of course my feeling has been for years that a course like Merion East does not really need 13 on the stimp to produce a challenge for the best in the world on that golf course.

I think Mike Davis has done some really wonderful things with US Open set-ups since becoming the USGA's Competitions Director (and then the Executive Director). However, I do think he has at least one more really important issue to address and that is a single stimpmeter number for the US Open such as 13 just does not need to be transported to every US Open site and course. All they need to transport in consistency is the challenge and a Torrey Pines at 13 and a Merion at 13 are very different challenges!

I think this issue and its message is really important and he's just the man to send it. Not only would it be helpful for the public to understand about US Open courses and their set-ups but it would be a tremendously benefical message to send to all golf in America about any of their golf courses!

[Joe Bausch]

Below clicks out at 480 yards (with an approx 300 yard tee shot):

[TEPaul]

Joe:

Good going there Pal. Basically a straight line from the right spot to the right spot just doesn't lie! 

What did you say your profession is? Is it chemistry or geometry?

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

Good going there Pal. Basically a straight line from the right spot to the right spot just doesn't lie! 

What did you say your profession is? Is it chemistry or geometry?

100 years later Merion has a "road hole".   

[ChipOat]

Joe and Tom,

I was directed to s spot further to the right and slightly forward.  Joe's mark appears to be about dead center.  If yes, then it does become a "faux Road Hole" tee shot and the Stop Sign is, most definitely, in play.

Chip

[Bill Brightly]

From the regular tee

[Bill Brightly]

For what it's worth, I think the new fairway cut on #2 looks goofy too - leaving those right side bunkers out in the rough like little lost children.  

Merion #2 from the tee. You can see the slightly darker new rough added on the left side. With obvious OB right, I wonder if the pros will risk driver here. I hit a very good driver, but drew it slightly into the new rough, which is just brutal.  I'm thinking this set up encourages two rescue clubs and a wedge to the green. But will the pros hit driver because it is a par 5?

[David_Elvins]

[Mark Bourgeois]

Joe and Tom,

I was directed to s spot further to the right and slightly forward.  Joe's mark appears to be about dead center.  If yes, then it does become a "faux Road Hole" tee shot and the Stop Sign is, most definitely, in play.

Chip

Not a Road Hole but a poor man's Hoylake 6. OB left, contrived carry, bunkers down the right, bends left, bunkers to deal with on the approach. A shame they couldn't sync the two venues to the same year.

Please don't remove the stop sign. The cognitive dissonance ("hit it"..."that's got to go"..."you really need to step on the gas here"..."NO STOP! Arggggghhhhh...."), presents a top-shelf mental challenge and scores Grade 1 on the quirk heritage scale.

[Sean Leary]

Thanks David. A bit right of this would seem to make more sense, no?

[TEPaul]

"100 years later Merion has a "road hole".    "


Joe Bausch:

Good point, but that's probably not specific enough, and it may require about five more threads of a couple of hundred pages each to discuss the details. According to some, the present 6th was originally the Road Hole when it was the 3rd hole in the original routing and when the tee was more to the right than now because the 2nd green was shorter than now. I'd have to check the dates but I think those changes were made within the first ten years, so techinically the new Road Hole 14th is a Road Hole restoration of sorts but just in another part of the course.

Who is it again on here who's been claiming for so long that Merion GC has always tried to minimize C.B. Macdonald's contribution about a century ago?

And further to that, Wayne Morrison is now actively pushing for a semi-redesign of some hole out there to be restored to an Alps hole adaptation because Wayne has recently become so enthralled with all things Macdonald and Merion East's CBM DNA or should we say Merion's East CBM DF (CBM's "Driving Force" in the course's original routing and design)?

[TEPaul]

By the way Joe, and seriously now, it has long been my feeling that if Macdonald really did have anything to do with suggesting and holes and their designs in Merion East's original routing, it seems the most logical and probably likely ones would have been the original #12 and #13 and perhaps the holes that originally crossed Ardmore Ave.

If you've seen enough Macdonald courses I think it is pretty safe to say that Macdonald did have a penchant for using existing roads in a number of his designs.

[JESII]

Tom,

Do you think a tee for #6 over near Ardmore Ave would create a Road Hole type strategic design there? I've never been to St. Andrews. How about if the corner property were out of bounds? Maybe it still is, I forget?

[TEPaul]

Jim:

What do you mean? #2 green and approach is there next to Ardmore Ave.

That land behind #2 green and to the right of #6 was originally called the Eaton Estate in the beginning. MCCGA Co did a mini land swap with the Eaton Estate about 90 years ago and probably about 10-12 years ago it came up for sale and Merion bought it. It's about six acres. Originally I thought they might use the existing house which was actually quite beautiful but in desperate need of capital maintenance and with vestiges of formal gardens behind it as a place to put people up but they did not want to get into something like that for pretty understandable reasons, and they actually tore that beautiful old house down.

[ChipOat]

If David Elvins' photo is from the correct spot, I stand corrected and the Stop Sign does, in fact, need to be removed.

I was directed to a place further to the right than dead center.

[Phil McDade]

Joe and Tom,

I was directed to s spot further to the right and slightly forward.  Joe's mark appears to be about dead center.  If yes, then it does become a "faux Road Hole" tee shot and the Stop Sign is, most definitely, in play.

Chip

Not a Road Hole but a poor man's Hoylake 6. OB left, contrived carry, bunkers down the right, bends left, bunkers to deal with on the approach. A shame they couldn't sync the two venues to the same year.

Please don't remove the stop sign. The cognitive dissonance ("hit it"..."that's got to go"..."you really need to step on the gas here"..."NO STOP! Arggggghhhhh...."), presents a top-shelf mental challenge and scores Grade 1 on the quirk heritage scale.

+1,000 -- best post on a Merion-related thread in quite a while.

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